And the sorry college track coaches who perpetuate this. Apparently they cant coach 18 year old Americans but, instead, crave "coach of the year" honors; and do so by recruiting 28 year old Kenyans. We all have a good idea of who these coaches are. They aren't respected, ultimately.
trackcoach wrote:
Buffaloes wrote:um, ever heard of LV and grampa ches?
Cheserk does not fit any of the characteristics of someone back dating their age, most likely he is the age that's documented or perhaps a year older. Ches lived in a U.S. run orphanage, ran grade school track, ran age group track, never competed in youth or junior competition...none of which are the hallmarks of an age cheat. Also, the age cheating I'm talking about is ultimately to get signed by an agent and Ches is pursuing an education.
What about Solomon Haile the Footlocker winner & U. Arkansas runner. There were clear discrepancies about his age that were never fully investigated.
What about Solomon Haile the Footlocker winner & U. Arkansas runner. There were clear discrepancies about his age that were never fully investigated.
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What about the Barnabas kirui situation. He won an NCAA title and numerous SEC titles and it looks like there is clear evidence that he lied about his background. Does anyone know the runner up in the steeple that year? Maybe he would like his title given back to him.
trackcoach wrote:
In the early part of my coaching career, I ran an age group program and I saw first hand the difference just one year can make. The older you get, the differences become smaller, but the differences between an 18/19 year old and a 25 year old is pretty significant. When Africans graduate from high school (what we call H.S.) they are generally 19 years old; if you are struggling to validate DOBs, why not just comprise a junior team from high school national champions? Quite a few of the African girls are high school national champions, but for the boys it has now become rare. The African boys (men) are usually athletes who train in a pro group, who have only raced in-country and haven't quite run fast enough to be picked up by an agent and run on the pro circuit. This athlete will say they are much younger than they are, win a youth and/or junior title and that's becomes their ticket to getting signed. This athlete could be in their mid-20s competing in the youth championship against 16/17 year olds. I am sympathetic to the fact that in some cases athletes don't know their true age, but what is most disturbing is that in many cases, the athlete's age is known and/or can be easily approximated to at least within a year. The inside joke is that most Africans do have the equivalent of a birth certificates and/or have a variety of means to determine DOB when it suits their needs. In fact, Africans take age cheating seriously when it comes to competing in-country in age group competitions, but look the other way when it comes competing abroad. What's also disturbing is that there are NGBs, coaches, agents and other athletes that we respect, who are if not complicit in this farce, look the other way. KAA, Simms, O'Connell for example, have all known certain athletes competing in age restricted competitions where over age. I have seem age cheating as blatant as an athlete 'having results on the books' competing for Kenya at one age, 2 years later competing for an Arab Emeritae country under a different name and a DOB making him young than when when he competed for Kenya 2 year ago. This would be an athlete that I know is over age from 3,000 miles away, KAA, coaches and other athletes would have to clearly know this as well. I know that O'Connell and a few others have spoken out against this, but they have not spoken out outside of Africa and certainly have not taken their case to the IAAF.
Age cheating is as much if not more about economics as it is about victory and national pride. Unfortunately there is a double standard, a 3:35 American miler is a star and can earn money on the pro circuit, but a 3:35 African is pass se. That's not fair, but perhaps it is no different than the slew of American 10.2 100m sprinters who can't run on the pro circuit and earn a living. The African age cheating situation has gotten so bad that some promising athletes will purposely not compete in age group or secondary school competitions and in some cases even drop out of school so that their age cannot be determined. What's also a shame is the great number of talented African school age kids we never get to see because grown men are denying them an opportunity. As I have said previously, even with out age cheating, the Africans kids would still kick our butts, but at least the playing field would be fair and perhaps you wouldn't the top 3 finishers in the 'youth' championship go 1:44 in the 800.
Let me end this by saying, I named a few people having absolutely no proof they have directly participated in anything wrong doing; however, I do have enough information to suggest they have looked the other way on a few occasions. The hope is that these individuals get pissed off enough from hearing their name being associated with the appearance of impropriety, stand up and become direct participants (on the record) in solving the problem. Track & field is not a sport based on judgements, it's based on exact measurements and those and those same exact measurements should extend to an athlete's DOB when competing in age restricted competitions.
And a 3:36 guy would be passé as well
miopia wrote:
who gives a shit? no one gets hurt.
This is probably Joe Walker at Louisville. He has been using overage Kenyan runners since he was at Meridian, South Alabama, Alabama, and now Louisville. He doesn't care who gets hurt (other runners/coaches) as long as he gets some blue carpet exposure and can pretend that the other coaches respect him. They don't.
PUOSU wrote:
trackcoach wrote:The age appropriate talented African high school and young athletes who never got a chance because because some 25 year old training in a pro group took their spot, not to mention all of the athletes from countries that do verify age and the integrity of junior records.
Can you give us some examples of 25-year-olds illegally taking a spot from a teenager? Thanks in advance.
Barnabas Kirui (NCAA steeple champ, Multi SEC champ) ran for two Universities during his collegiate career and somehow managed to run as a freshman at Ole Miss with Joe Walker. He ran for Kenyatta University during his first World University games (Izmir) and then showed up at Ole Miss with his Kenyan coach as a freshman. He then went on to take lots of titles, glory, etc... from other deserving runners as nothing more than a cheat and with a complicit coaching staff.
knowed better wrote:
PUOSU wrote:Can you give us some examples of 25-year-olds illegally taking a spot from a teenager? Thanks in advance.
Barnabas Kirui (NCAA steeple champ, Multi SEC champ) ran for two Universities during his collegiate career and somehow managed to run as a freshman at Ole Miss with Joe Walker. He ran for Kenyatta University during his first World University games (Izmir) and then showed up at Ole Miss with his Kenyan coach as a freshman. He then went on to take lots of titles, glory, etc... from other deserving runners as nothing more than a cheat and with a complicit coaching staff.
The NCAA is one thing, but my main concern are World Youth and Junior competitions were the object is to compete against athletes your own age. I will always rate Ritz's 3rd place finish at WJr XC as him most significant accomplishment, because he was probably the only age legit athlete in the top-10.
I don't see age cheating as an issue. Miruts Yifter saying he was 44 at 1980 Olympics. Who cares? In the 2012 Olympic 800 metres final, I believe three African teenagers. Age cheating doesn't come to mind. I don't think we in US have the stomach to train our 12 to 17 year olds that hard.
i definatly dont think a 16 or 17 year old could run a 3.33 1500 metres,a 12.54 5000 metres,or a 27.02 10'000 metres,even if theyre drugged up to the gills.i dont believe its humanly possible,no matter where in the world you come from.To run those times at that age,youd either need to be a cyborg,or part horse.I dont believe 19 year olds could run 1.42 or 3.30 either,unless theyre using a lot of drugs,african or not.
In US, since 1896 we have been the elite country for 400 metres. We think nothing of a 16 or 17 year old US high school lad running a 46 or 47 400m. If we, in US can run 46 400m at age 16, it's possible Nijel Amos running 1:42 at age 18 was age legitimate. I don't believe in US we have a clue how to train young 800 metres runners. You're exaggerating when you state 16 or 17 year old Africans running 12:54 5000 metres. Give us a name and date that occurred.
Jeff Tallon: I just fact checked your 12:54 5000 metres claim. According to IAAF, 48 men have run 5000 metres, sub-12:55. NO TEENAGERS. If there was an unofficial race or time trial we don't know, please share.
ironside wrote:
In US, since 1896 we have been the elite country for 400 metres. We think nothing of a 16 or 17 year old US high school lad running a 46 or 47 400m. If we, in US can run 46 400m at age 16, it's possible Nijel Amos running 1:42 at age 18 was age legitimate. I don't believe in US we have a clue how to train young 800 metres runners. You're exaggerating when you state 16 or 17 year old Africans running 12:54 5000 metres. Give us a name and date that occurred.
Re: "We think nothing of a 16 or 17 year old US high school lad running a 46 or 47 400m."
Which one is more legit, 1. An American 16 or 17 year old who runs a 46 or 47 400m and you know exactly when and where he was born, you know what he ran the year before that and the year before that and does not come for a country with a history of age cheating. -Or, 2. an African 16 or 17 year old who runs a 3:33 1500, you don't know when he was born, you have no sense of his progression, he basically comes for out of nowhere and represents a country known for age cheating. Also, consider the fact that they American is looking forward to winning his state championship and one day compete in the NCAA system. The African on the other hand is looking forward to the DL circuit, making money for himself, family, agent and coach, etc.
Do your own research and you will found that there are numerous well documented examples of African age cheating. It is rampant and outrageous as in athletes in their mid-20s running in WY competitions, athletes running for Kenya as a junior and running for an Arab Emirate several years latter as a junior athlete under a different name. At the 2011 WYC (I repeat, "World Youth" Championships for 16-17 year olds), the top 3 athletes all ran 1:44x in the 800m final. The 800m junior record is 1:41 and several African Athletes have run 1:42x in the 800m and yet no junior in the rest of the world has ever broken 1:44. If junior athletes are running 1:41/1:42...why isn't the world record in the 800m 1:38?
If you don't think Africans are age cheating...I could use the typical LRC speak and call you an idiot, but I will be respectful and simply say you are very naïve.
Track coach, without calling me an idiot, you came close to doing so. I prioritize my concerns: 1) I want blood dopers exposed. 2) I'd like better drug testing globally. 3) I want drug cheats caught, all of them. I want to bust runners from GDR & URS and other countries going back to 1950s. 4) I'm tired of NIKE throwing their weight around. The NCAA D1 Athletics Championships doesn't need to be in OR every year; We in US shouldn't worry about which kid wins gold in Youth Games. If US kids worry about getting down to 1:42, 800m by early 20s, everything will work out in the end. Maybe we in US should go to all 20 year olds whom are 46+ 400 metre men and ask all said men to move up to 800 metres? Read what I said. I never said age cheating didn't happen. I don't see the huge crime. I don't see the huge gain to age cheat. Track coach, if you have evidence Nicholas Kemboi and/or Belal Mansoor lied about their age and/or if you don't believe their 3:33+ 1500 metres are good times, please show your evidence.
Re: 13yr. old freshman. One of my daughters skipped a grade. She was a 13yr. old freshman during fall varsity swimming. She competes against females 13 to 19. I tell her, "You'll have to beat them (older females) someday. Why not now!"
The above was sent in app. 16 months ago. I feel like I'm the most distressed by the way UNM has put their women xc team together. I said last week: all D1 programs should have at least half US athletes. If people are still stress about H Rono, be stressed by UNM's xc team
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ironside wrote:
The above was sent in app. 16 months ago. I feel like I'm the most distressed by the way UNM has put their women xc team together. I said last week: all D1 programs should have at least half US athletes. If people are still stress about H Rono, be stressed by UNM's xc team
Given the propensity for Kenyans to age cheat, how much stock should we put in Kurgat being a 26 year old sophomore? It seems like a reasonable age given her features, but given Kenya's record, one will never know.
trackcoach wrote:
Over the years I have written quite a bit about African age cheating at youth and junior global competitions and perhaps to some, it sounds like sour grapes. The East Africans are the best at the senior ranks, therefore why wouldn't they be the best the best at the junior ranks. That's a valid point, but as we have gotten better and closed the gap at the senior level, the gap hasn't changed much at the junior level. With out a doubt, the African juniors are very good and if they sent an age legit team to world jrs, they would still do extremely well. However, it would not look like a freak show as in a junior athlete going out in the 800m in 48 seconds, world (senior) record pace and still manage to win. There is perhaps only a hand full of senior athletes who could go out in 48 second and manage to stay on their feet.
Even though the U.S. is going through a renaissance, the last 14 years have pretty much rewritten the record books for H.S./Jr. middle and long distance performances, yet we still can't compete with the African juniors. Alan Webb the American H.S. record holder in the mile by a significant margin, had he competed in world jrs in 2001, he probably would not have won a medal. The same for German Fernandez in 2008 or Lukas Verzbicas in 2011. I remember the excitement in 2010 when college freshmen Robby Andrews and Casimir Loxsom represented the U.S. in the 800m at world jrs. Someone said, they will probably go 1-2 and I said, I'd be surprised if either one of them won a medal. I caught a flack for saying that. Btw, I was wrong, Loxsom did win a medal, but the Kenyan athlete who finished ahead of him looked to me like he was running just fast enough to win and a week later he was competing on the European circuit and running a second faster. Although age cheating is less pervasive among females, I said almost 2 months ago that America's greatest H.S. Middle distance runner, Mary Cain was not guaranteed a medal in any event. The Africans are well aware of Mary Cain and they will put forth whatever athlete is required to beat her and age won't matter one bit.
How bad is the situation? - 'very bad' I suspect it is rare that an African athlete is the correct age, I estimate that over 90% of the African athletes are over age. How much over age are they? - 'In some cases very old' Over the years I have been able estimate a couple of athletes being close to 30, with most of them in their mid-20s and very few legit 18 and 19 year olds. How is this possible? - 'It's easy' The IAAF leaves it up to nations to verify the age of its athletes and does not have the will to challenge the Track and Field NGOs. Even in cases as obvious as a Kenyan athlete in his second year at an American university, with an older brother running world jrs. Why no one does anything about it? - There are many people connected to this scam that benefit from it, some of them are the most respected people in track and field. Except for the athletes themselves, coaches and the sports NGOs, most of the people participate indirectly. All Kenyan athletes, including the Kenyan and ex-Kenyan athletes competing in the U.S. know about it, all of your top coaches and agents of African athletes, Simms, Flynn, Bro Colm O’Connell, Coach Renato Canova...basically any athlete from Kenya or anyone who works with Kenyan athletes participates 'indirectly' by at the very least pretending it does not exist. Why people connected to the problem rarely even speak about it? - 'conspiracy of silence' East African countries are very poor and a couple of good seasons on the European circuit can support an athlete and often their extended family for life and this is so important that there is an unwritten rule to not interfere with that and unfortunately, African athletes are subject to higher standard. A Kenyan running a 3:35 1500m needs 18 years old to get into the money races.
For the record, there are countries outside of Africa that age cheat as well, namely China, the DR and Cuba.
+1
miopia wrote:
who gives a sh1t? no one gets hurt.
+1
Bump!