RSC - Please address Wejo's post where he mentions that both Ryan Hall and Paula Radcliffe have hypothyroidism. Is it possible this is wide spread among elite level distance runners? Should Ryan Hall and all others also voluntary release records? Is there a broader correlation among all distance athletes and not runners?
Unrelated, it also appears that both Muhammed Ali and Carl Lewis were treated for hypothyroidism.
I've been thinking about this a little more, and this is what occurred to me:
Very intense training leads overtraining, many of the symptoms of which closely mimic hypothyroidism.
This suggests that overtraining might mess with thyroid function. A search on Google Scholar confirms that overtraining is linked to thyroid dysfunction:http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=overtraining+syndrome+thyroid+function&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=7z4NUZ3iIOnV0QHBk4HoCA&ved=0CC8QgQMwAA
So an athlete that trains very hard for a long period of time may suffer from hypothyroidism. If you look at Salazar's history as an athlete, it sounds pretty likely that this happened to him. Now if you overtrain, you can go to the doctor and get your thyroid hormones checked, and they're probably low. So he prescribes synthroid or whatever, you take it, and now you can continue training at the high level you were at before, only you won't overtrain. There's other issues to worry about -- can you raise low testosterone with thyroid hormones? I don't think so, though I'm not sure. You'd have to look into other methods to legally raise testosterone. Anemia may also be an issue. If you want to fight this legally, you supplement with iron+ Vitamin C and live at altitude, which legally raises EPO levels. So basically, a "clean" athlete who trains scientifically tries to get the benefits of PEDs without actually taking any banned substance.
It's interesting that a number of people known for training extremely hard are hypothyroid, isn't it?
Solid
so 3 months ago Salazar gets his doc to diagnose Mary Cain for the same hypothyroid issues Galen & rest of NOP are on and now look at results!
I also have never seen it mentioned here that Salazar has his own blood testing lab set up in the otherwise top-secret Mia Hamm building atNike. This way everything is done in house, no need to have it sent off to someone like Conte as he did in the 80's. this way testing can be done daily when in town.
any proof of this?
if 16yr old Mary Cain is shown to recently be put on thyroid medication, i can no longer be a fan of running---
Gamera wrote:
Thy Guy wrote:The doctor they went to is really liberal with his diagnoses
http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/13240/Dr-Jeffrey+S.-Brown-HOUSTON-TX.htmlYou really got wonder about how they chose Dr Jeffrey S Brown. I mean, first of all, if you travel all the way from Oregon to Houston just to get your thyroid checked, you figure the MD must be top-notch, right? A real leader in the field....But this guy rates 3.2 out of 5 stars. Awesome! Looking through the comments, the two main conclusions a reader might draw are a)he's an a-hole, and b)he overprescribes. To be fair, he does get a few positive reviews, but ones like these are more common:
"Very patronizing and clearly in league with drug manufacturers...more interested in money than patient health! "
"Though he was the one who found my autoimmune thyroid problem, he overmedicated me for 7 months which caused a whole new set of problems...."
"I was WAY over medicated and finally stopped seeing him when I woke up with palpitations from a sleep. Did not like when I asked questions...."
"This was by far the most imcompetent doctor ever. He was very rude and extremely arrogant. He is a 1st class **** and seems like...."
Hey Galen! I think I've found a doc for you. This guy sounds GREAT!!! Pack up the cryo-sauna....we're headed to HOUSTON!!! Woooo!
Wow, of all the doctors in the world that they can go to, they choose this guy?? The one who just so happens to have a reputation for being in bed with the pharmaceutical industry?
I would love to hear their reasoning for why they chose this doctor.
This story is getting weirder and weirder.
Drunken Noodles wrote:
Wow, of all the doctors in the world that they can go to, they choose this guy??
Yes.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:...what do you think the chances are that Salazar's group will EVER make their prescriptions and TUEs public?
Mr. Obvious wrote:
Despite repeated posting of the question we have had exactly zero evidence supplied that anybody in the group has a TUE for anything--much less that ALL of them take thyroid medicine.
One way to find out. Open the books. Think these athletes are willing to come clean about the "grey area" their own coach says they operate in, in the same of clean sport?
Books: open.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:One way to find out. Open the books. Think these athletes are willing to come clean about the "grey area" their own coach says they operate in, in the same of clean sport?
So in the absence of any and all evidence that anybody on Salazar's group is taking thyroid medication you just prefer to continue to slander them anonymously. OK, but I'm personally going to refrain.
Got enough evidence yet?
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
Gamera wrote:I don't think athletes could be required to disclose. But I imagine it could be something like tax return disclosure for politicians. Somebody with nothing to hide might make public their "TUE list" (assuming such a thing exists). They might challenge others to do so. Those who refused would look like they had something to hide. I bet someone like Paula Radcliffe, who seemed to be pretty vociferous about making her blood available for testing now and anytime in the future, would go along with something like that. If some big names like that got on board, it might catch on.
^^^ THIS ^^^
Think Rupp would be in?
My idea would have saved Salazar and Rupp a PR nightmare.
Should have been transparent.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:This ^^^
But what do you think the chances are that Salazar's group will EVER make their prescriptions and TUEs public?
Despite repeated posting of the question we have had exactly zero evidence supplied that anybody in the group has a TUE for anything--much less that ALL of them take thyroid medicine.
You were wrong.
A Duck wrote:
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:That's my point. Thanks.
Transparency would be to the benefit of any (clean) group.
No, your point is to display your ignorance and dishonesty on the web. To play your little games and to smear people you don't know, from a cloak of anonymity. Your methods are disingenuous and are not fooling any of the intelligent folk refuting you.
Your argument is destroyed in one sentence: Displaying what all the athletes have for TUE's would be an invasion of their privacy.
Based on previous experience, it appears beyond your level of intelligence and complex reasoning to think through that privacy is an issue.
Do you think you have the right to know what runner is HIV positive? Do you have a right to know what female athletes are on birth control pills? How about an unmarried African female athlete, training in the USA, with a TUE for birth control pills? Could you see the privacy issue there?
Ever read a message board in Africa on a rape case? The posts are flooded by men blaming the unmarried female victim/s for being whores having sex. Even raped married women are blamed. One can only imagine what could happen to an unmarried African female athlete where it is posted on the web that she uses birth control pills at school in the USA (could be for cycle regulation), upon her return home to the village...
There are reasons for privacy.
Idiotic little A Duck, where are you now?
If they'd come clean about the TUEs, nobody would have had any motivation to hack that and all the other junk they take.
Secrecy backfires. Bad for the athlete, bad for the sport. Makes the whole meldonium mess look hypocritical.
Elite athletes should disclose their TUEs, as I've said here for years.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
noname wrote:interesting idea about the top guys having access to better docs. see this thread. there are some thoughts that you need to maintain a TSH of 1.00 in order to train but there's no research.
I hope you're not serious.
Generally, the goal of thyroid supplementation is a steady state that's sufficient to keep thyoid-stimulating hormone (TSH) in the normal range: under 4.0, or under 3.0. (These references vary due to endless argumentation in the field over what "normal" is. There is little or no evidence for treating more agressively than this.
In pregnancy, we aim to keep TSH lower still, under 2.5, because it's been shown to have neurological benefits for the developing infant.
Treating with enough supplemental thyroxin to push TSH down to 1.0 seems crazy. That is closer to HYPERthyroid than hypothyroid. If a patient had a heart attack due to arrythmia on this dosage, they'd have a very real case against the prescribing doctor.
It's disturbing that this is being shopped to runners, who no doubt are tired and love the extra energy that inappropriately high thyoid supplemtation is sure to provide. Makes me wonder about the "treatment goals" of runners using this. Since this is a "grey area" as described by Salazar, maybe some would make their tests public for the sake of transparency?
"Better docs," indeed. What do these "better docs" say the optimal free testosterone level is to train as a sprinter? Because you definitely want to get enough of that.
Great post. Should be pinned.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
Generally, the goal of thyroid supplementation is a steady state that's sufficient to keep thyoid-stimulating hormone (TSH) in the normal range: under 4.0, or under 3.0. (These references vary due to endless argumentation in the field over what "normal" is. There is little or no evidence for treating more agressively than this.
In pregnancy, we aim to keep TSH lower still, under 2.5, because it's been shown to have neurological benefits for the developing infant.
Treating with enough supplemental thyroxin to push TSH down to 1.0 seems crazy. That is closer to HYPERthyroid than hypothyroid. If a patient had a heart attack due to arrythmia on this dosage, they'd have a very real case against the prescribing doctor.
It's disturbing that this is being shopped to runners, who no doubt are tired and love the extra energy that inappropriately high thyoid supplemtation is sure to provide. Makes me wonder about the "treatment goals" of runners using this. Since this is a "grey area" as described by Salazar, maybe some would make their tests public for the sake of transparency?
"Better docs," indeed. What do these "better docs" say the optimal free testosterone level is to train as a sprinter? Because you definitely want to get enough of that.
An inaccurate post.
While a TSH of 3.0-4.0 is considered within the normal range for a healthy person, and would not prompt a diagnosis of Hypothyroidism, most doctors would aim for TSH of around 1.0 for patients who have been given a diagnosis. Any worthwhile doctor however, will prioritise minimising the symptoms over prescribing to a number
RR wrote:
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:Generally, the goal of thyroid supplementation is a steady state that's sufficient to keep thyoid-stimulating hormone (TSH) in the normal range: under 4.0, or under 3.0. (These references vary due to endless argumentation in the field over what "normal" is. There is little or no evidence for treating more agressively than this.
In pregnancy, we aim to keep TSH lower still, under 2.5, because it's been shown to have neurological benefits for the developing infant.
Treating with enough supplemental thyroxin to push TSH down to 1.0 seems crazy. That is closer to HYPERthyroid than hypothyroid. If a patient had a heart attack due to arrythmia on this dosage, they'd have a very real case against the prescribing doctor.
It's disturbing that this is being shopped to runners, who no doubt are tired and love the extra energy that inappropriately high thyoid supplemtation is sure to provide. Makes me wonder about the "treatment goals" of runners using this. Since this is a "grey area" as described by Salazar, maybe some would make their tests public for the sake of transparency?
"Better docs," indeed. What do these "better docs" say the optimal free testosterone level is to train as a sprinter? Because you definitely want to get enough of that.
An inaccurate post.
While a TSH of 3.0-4.0 is considered within the normal range for a healthy person, and would not prompt a diagnosis of Hypothyroidism, most doctors would aim for TSH of around 1.0 for patients who have been given a diagnosis. Any worthwhile doctor however, will prioritise minimising the symptoms over prescribing to a number
You proved my point.
An athlete who is tired with TSH 3.5 isn't hypothyroid, and doesn't need to be treated down to 1.0. They're tired, and need to train/recover within their abilities.
Treating these healthy runners for "a diagnosis" they don't really have is like "diagnosing" a sprinter with "low testerosterone" and prescribing anabolics because they can't recover from lifting 4x per week. It's cheating.
RR wrote:Any worthwhile doctor however, will prioritise minimising the symptoms over prescribing to a number
Thus closing the perfect diagnosis circle.
Endurance athlete? Check
Symptoms related to thyroid disfunction? Check
Prescribe thyroid meds for improved recovery performance. Check.
AMA/liability compliance. Check
WADA compliance. Check
Athletes on the thyroid meds experience improved recovery over weeks, meaningfully improving performance over time.
Clean athletes are at a substantial disadvantage.
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
RR wrote:Any worthwhile doctor however, will prioritise minimising the symptoms over prescribing to a numberThus closing the perfect diagnosis circle.
Endurance athlete? Check
Symptoms related to thyroid disfunction? Check
Prescribe thyroid meds for improved recovery performance. Check.
AMA/liability compliance. Check
WADA compliance. Check
Athletes on the thyroid meds experience improved recovery over weeks, meaningfully improving performance over time.
Clean athletes are at a substantial disadvantage.
Yup.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:They're already transparent: their TUEs are on record with the appropriate organizations. The fact that you, the fan, don't get to see all professionals' health records has no bearing on the actual sport.
You call that "transparent"? Um...UCI much? Carl Lewis a little bit?
What a joke.
I think that Radcliffe would be willing to publicly disclose her TUEs and relevant medications. But she is outspoken against doping.
Rupp says nothing against doping, and Salazar talks about the "grey area" (http://law.duke.edu/sportscenter/salazar.pdf). I'm not sure if they'd be willing to disclose. Do you think they would?
Gee, I can't imagine why athletes wouldn't want to disclose their private medical records to an obsessive weirdo with an axe to grind. If you're so into transparency why don't you release your mental health records, so we can see what it is exactly that is wrong with you?
Here's the thing. You're not a doctor or a scientist, that much is clear. The fact that you don't have a basic understanding of physiology and how the treatment of diseases is not doping is evident. You also have some weird puritanical hang-ups with pills.
I'll break it down for you. Rupp has a bunch of national championships and two olympic medals. You're champion of this thread. Get over it. He might be dirty and getting away with it, but so are many others. That doesn't mean that you get to violate everyone's privacy - it's just not that important.
Who is the "obsessive weirdo" you are referring to? Rupp and Salazar would disclose medical records to USADA. They would remain private from everyone except the investigator(s) on the case. Who in USADA has an axe to grind against NOP?