In the case of sex hormones such as progesterone, estrogen, testosterone and human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (hCG), there is no overlap between the sexes. AFAIK, males don't make progesterone and no male child, adolescent or adult has ever been found to make or have hCG. Because hCG is made by the placenta during pregnancy.
RunRagged, I agree with 99% of what you say on the multiple threads on this topic. However, for your full information, males can "sometimes"produce HCG. It usually occurs in the context of choriocarcinoma (a form of testicular cancer) or a few rare cases of liver cancer. Definitely not normal, however.
I am concerned that a lot of transgender people don't consider themselves "non-binary". Some do, but some actually consider themselves to BE the opposite gender. So we may have men dominating the men's, non-binary, AND women's division of these races.
Using your mouthpiece to spread this backward-thinking transphobia is appalling.
Since you are so obsessed with identity, I'm a 50 year old white American male who loves running and follows professional running as a hobby. I have family members, colleagues and friends who are trans. For you to say there is no place for them to compete in our sport is a disgraceful. I applaud NYRR.
I hope others will join me in leaving this site for good.
Goodbye Johnsons. I hope someday in your old age your mind starts to open up a bit, but I won't hold my breath.
For the most part, I've decided to try to stay off this thread and let the editorial speak for itself but feel I need to chime in here to correct what I view as a false statement.
I'm sorry you feel that way and feel that you are letting emotion get in the way of rationale thinking here.
. Let me be clear, what you wrote is incorrect. I 100% think trans athletes and non-binary athletes should be allowed to compete. I never said they shouldn't be allowed to compete. My issue is if they are competing in an elite division for prize money, it 100% needs to be in the sex of their birth.
If the NYRR only asked about sex, not gender, would that work? Perhaps the best option would be to have two categories - open and then a protected XX category - we take the names men, women, etc out of it.
But let me be clear, I don't have a problem with the NYRR having non-binary or trans categories as long as it's recreational. If they want to do that in the name of inclusiveness, go right ahead. I have a problem with them offering prize money..
I think the first draft title for article title was, "Gender identity has no place in elite sport" but we shortened it. The article was entirely focused on the fact they paid out prize money. Last year, I didn't write any columns about the issue as the division was only for recreational runners. I'd be happy to talk to you about this on the phone. If we chat, I think you'll learn I don't come from a place of hate. 844-538-7786. ext3
There is no human right to be a professional athlete.
The thing is you brought in a ringer to say what you want to say but are unable to articulate yourself with sounding like a buffoon and slap your name on it like you contributing anything. Sad.
In the case of sex hormones such as progesterone, estrogen, testosterone and human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (hCG), there is no overlap between the sexes. AFAIK, males don't make progesterone and no male child, adolescent or adult has ever been found to make or have hCG. Because hCG is made by the placenta during pregnancy.
RunRagged, I agree with 99% of what you say on the multiple threads on this topic. However, for your full information, males can "sometimes"produce HCG. It usually occurs in the context of choriocarcinoma (a form of testicular cancer) or a few rare cases of liver cancer. Definitely not normal, however.
Thank you for correcting me. I wish there was a way to correct my post itself.
I see that nowadays HCG is prescribed to men with hypogonadism induced by anabolic androgenic steroid use as well as for boys and young men with natural hypogonadism and/or "micropenis" and babies with cryptorchidism HCG causes growth of the penis and testicles and stimulates the testes to produce testosterone and sperm. I had no idea.
I guess a female (sex) runner just needs to non-binary up and win the third gender race. Put up or shut up time. The other option is a biological male that identifies as female and races non-binary can win. Then you'd have a female (gender) win 2 out of 3.
Female is female and it doesn't matter if we are talking sex or gender
Is "Gender identity" not a feeling though? And is a feeling close to a belief? The comparison to religion is a good one actually.
Biological sex (Men vs Women) is Science. Objective. Factual. Chromosomes. End of story.
The categories of competitive racing (be it for prize money or for a Golden Ticket to Western states 100 was was the case at Javelina) are based on clear cut scientific advantages between the two sexes.
There could be some rare cases where an individual has multiple genitalia and that could be a "gray area" when it comes to determining biological sex. Chromosomes and testosterone levels often don't lie though. These cases are less common than trans athletes or those that are biologically 100% a certain sex but feel/identify like they are the opposite sex.
By introducing another category into the race (not based on objective or scientific measures) we start to blur the line between all categories. This is especially true when you have biological males and females that may switch between categories at different times based on how they feel.
In that regard, gender and gender association has to do with the mind. And in the case of being "gender fluid" and/or non-binary at times, one is using subjective feelings of emotion or even desire to determine their category and place rather than quantitive and objective measures.
The winner is the first one across the line and they are ranked by time and corresponding place. These are objective measures and the whole sport is centered around numbers and facts and science.
I think that Rojo and Yamauchi win on logic here.
Sexual attraction also is a “feeling.” You appear to be implying that being gay is also like a religion because it is based on a feeling, which you claim is like a belief. Maybe you should stay in your lane.
This is not the comeback you think it is. The whole point being made is that we don't have separate prize pools and competitions for straight and gay and whatever else people because that has nothing to do with their athletic capabilities (unlike biological sex).
Sexual attraction also is a “feeling.” You appear to be implying that being gay is also like a religion because it is based on a feeling, which you claim is like a belief. Maybe you should stay in your lane.
This is not the comeback you think it is. The whole point being made is that we don't have separate prize pools and competitions for straight and gay and whatever else people because that has nothing to do with their athletic capabilities (unlike biological sex).
Except you have no earthly notion of what kind of comeback I think it is. I was holding the poster accountable for his choice of language and faulty logic and not addressing the issue initially being discussed in the thread. I don’t care about non-binary individuals getting prize money at races. I do not believe Rojo does either. Why would people care about this? Really?
As far as DNA goes, Male is XY, Female is XX. That is biology. Maybe people will re-define the definition of chromosomes. People can pretend to be the other, and even be recognized legally as something they biologically are not. They are still just pretending, even if they have surgery, take hormones, or are feminine males or masculine females before hand, their chromosomes are still XX or XY. I don't have any problem at all with their pretending. Let them do it. If marathon organizers want to give a purse to the pretenders, that is also fine--it is the marathon organizer's decision.
That being said, biological males do have a huge advantage due to bone structure and many other reasons.
As far as DNA goes, Male is XY, Female is XX. That is biology. Maybe people will re-define the definition of chromosomes. People can pretend to be the other, and even be recognized legally as something they biologically are not. They are still just pretending, even if they have surgery, take hormones, or are feminine males or masculine females before hand, their chromosomes are still XX or XY. I don't have any problem at all with their pretending. Let them do it. If marathon organizers want to give a purse to the pretenders, that is also fine--it is the marathon organizer's decision.
That being said, biological males do have a huge advantage due to bone structure and many other reasons.
It's actually not quite that simple - though I wish it were. There are other sex chromosome patterns beyond 46,XY and 46,XX. Some female people are 45,X0. Some male people are 47, XXY and 48, XXXY. There are actually female people who are 46,XY.
These sorts of atypical human karyotypes happen rarely, yes - but they do happen.
The main genetic determinant of human sex appears to be the presence or absence of the SRY gene. The SRY gene is usually found on the Y chromosome in males. But every once in a blue moon, the SRY gene is missing from the Y in an XY individual, so that person develops for all intents and purposes as female - or as more female than male.
Similarly, every once in a long while, someone whose chromosomes are 46,XX will have the SRY gene, or parts of it, on one of their X chromosomes.
Also, testing for sex chromosomes will yield different results depending on which of the human body's trillions of cells you're testing. Half of the sperm germ cells in the testes and half of the sperm made by males will be X.
Complicating the matter further is the fact that during pregnancy, there is usually an exchange of maternal and fetal cells across the placenta. As a result, many women who have gestated male offspring like me have some of our male offsprings' XY cells with their male DNA not ours scattered here and there throughout our bodies. And many male human beings have XX cells bearing their mothers' DNA scattered about their bodies too.
I ran a 5k in Ottawa on July 1st this year, and when I stuck around to see the race winners it was clear that first place in the women’s category was a biological male.
The runner was 50 years old, and ran a time of 16:35 which would actually be a world’s record for women over 50. Of course, everybody just pretends this is normal.
What really got me, however, was that the second place finisher was a 17 year old high school track and field star, and her moment of glory in winning the Run Ottawa Canada Day race was stolen by a fifty year old biological male. It’s all so infuriating, and yet people are being forced to pretend it is all just fine.
So, hypothetically, if there were no transwomen (men identifying as women), but more transmen (women identifying as men), just how far would this "rights" issue have progressed?
Do you really think transwomen would have made any progress for their so-called civil rights to invade male spaces?
We all know it's a left-wing men's rights movement. Heck, transmen are rarely even talked about. It's like they don't count.
No it's all about men invading female spaces - and for the purposes of this board, female sport.
"If you tell a like big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Jospeh Goebbels
Because we don't want to live in that kind of world.
Because women have fought hard for our rights, and we're not going to let men take them away.
Eh - A good chunk of that is ok, but the reality is that women fought hard for free handouts and sexist men obliged. That was the initial cause for the current circus. Outside of age developmental categories people should not be segregated into different groups for competition. Everyone knows this but just chooses to ignore it.
I ran a 5k in Ottawa on July 1st this year, and when I stuck around to see the race winners it was clear that first place in the women’s category was a biological male.
The runner was 50 years old, and ran a time of 16:35 which would actually be a world’s record for women over 50. Of course, everybody just pretends this is normal.
What really got me, however, was that the second place finisher was a 17 year old high school track and field star, and her moment of glory in winning the Run Ottawa Canada Day race was stolen by a fifty year old biological male. It’s all so infuriating, and yet people are being forced to pretend it is all just fine.
This has happened to other talented, hard-woking teenage girls and young women in the past year in a number of different sports competitions - bicycling, skateboarding, surfing, disc golf, regular golf. Sometimes the men who have beaten them have been blokes in the 40s and 50s. Other times younger than that, but still much older than the girls and yonung women they beat. It's demoralizing and depressing for the female competitors.
Nikki Hiltz seems to think that because she's not had to compete against any males, the incursion of males into female sports is not happening. But meanwhile other gender identity ideology advocates are saying it is happening - and they're celebrating it .
Also, since you're from Ottawa, in case you don' know this already: Canada was given one spot in women's archery at the Tokyo Olympics - and that spot went to Stephanie Barrett, a 6'1" and 42-year-old male.
Significantly, Barrett only started doing archery in 2016. But since Barrett has decided to, and been allowed to, compete in the female category, even as a beginner Barrett started winning events and setting records right away.
I've never heard of another athlete who's risen so fast in a sport as Barrett has done in women's archery. From rank beginner to best in the nation, pan-American champion and Olympic competitor in the space of just 5 years.
Yes, you don’t seem to know much about it, so I’m surprised you haven’t written six long paragraphs on the northern aurora borealis and poly cystic ovary syndrome while finding a way to castigate and mock the likes of Caster Semenya, and blather self-contradicting blah on XY DSDs to acknowledge that sex isn’t entirely binary even while arguing for the binary; and occasionally sprinkle in babbletalk about terms and cultures like hijrahs that you have no idea about, which is literally as stupid as equating trans with gay like uninformed old conservative folk who just don’t know much do.
I am greatly amused by how much my posts trigger you. Your posts call to my mind the way brogressive misogynists like Vaush, MRAs and males incels constantly invoke gender identity ideology and so-called "transwomen" and "transgirils" to give themselves free passes to be abusive to female people. Vaush and his ilk who call themselves male feminists routinely heap praises on males who LARP as females whilst calling female people "dumb cxnts" and "stupid bxtches."
How is human/mammalian sex not binary? What are the names of the additional gametes beyond egg and sperm?
What are the names of the human sex chromosomes other than X and Y?
I have never castigated or mocked "the likes of Caster Semenya" for having DMSDs. I've just pointed out that they are not "women with high testosterone" or "female athletes with hyperandrogenism" as they are commonly described in the media. I've said in plain language that males with differences/disorders of male sex development such as XY 5-ARD - which caused Semenya and others to be born with missing, minuscule or malformed penises and their testes in an unexpected location - are not female.
I have taken issue with Semenya, Niyonsaba and others with DMSDs in women's sports for their dishonesty and often arrogant, totally self-interested behavior. I have criticized Semenya in particular for Semenya's many misogynistic statements, Semenya's lying and gaslighting, and Semenya's blatant grifting such as Semenya headlining conferences on women's rights and Semenya serving as the public face and brand ambassador for South African-made menstrual cups and menstrual health and hygiene.
I have also commented that it's very likely that Semenya is the biological father of the two female children that Semenya's female wife Violet Raseboya has given birth to in the past several years.
You’ve managed to compose six paragraphs but a couple of them are too small, so I suggest writing more to keep your composition skills edgy.
I ignore most of your blather, so it’s amusing to think you trigger me.
So, hypothetically, if there were no transwomen (men identifying as women), but more transmen (women identifying as men), just how far would this "rights" issue have progressed?
Do you really think transwomen would have made any progress for their so-called civil rights to invade male spaces?
We all know it's a left-wing men's rights movement. Heck, transmen are rarely even talked about. It's like they don't count.
No it's all about men invading female spaces - and for the purposes of this board, female sport.
Trans men competing in men's sports is not a problem to anyone other than RWCWs. And no sports governing body is trying to restrict their participation. Only the rightwing nutjobs in the state legislatures want to ban trans boys from boys' HS teams. Not a single boy in HS sports has ever complained about having to compete against trans boys.
It is a complete nonissue for anyone who is not interested in mobilizing the rightwing base for the next election.
Such an annoying stance. Why are you bothered? Over $15,000? I have seen race purses for Clydesdale runners (tall or heavy) and not been bothered. I assume a sponsor offered this, or the race saw it as a way to get more attention and, yes, inclusivity. That you spend time and effort on this when many of us have hoped for a category for runners like Caster Semanya I just don’t get it. Human beings. You do know that a number of babies are born with both parts I assume. It’s a race with 1000s of runners. Let them run and have categories! If only a few people live and run and make the 80s age group I don’t fret that $x per runner might be awarded to them. This is something that bothers you for some very very odd reason. I am much more bothered by the female divisions having been intruded upon thank finally having a division that might enable those athletes to have involvement. If a sponsor wants to sponsor, what is your beef?!
