Girls 800 National High School Champ Speaks Out About Transgenders in Sports

not a duck wrote:

not a duck wrote:

Give me one example of a person born a male who transitions to a female exclusively, for the sole purpose, of winning in female sports.

Until you do so, 99% of the arguments against allowing trans woman participation is not based in reality

Waiting

For the sole purpose? This is a nonsense demand. Human motivation is more complex than this. I wrote a lengthy post earlier in this thread outlining the theoretical underpinnings of today's trans activism and why its flawed mythological understanding of human nature is attractive to people with personality disorders. People with such personality disorders may claim a trans identity for a variety of reasons, including attention, validation, and power. These motives may include wanting the accolates and attention that comes with going from average athlete to a champion, even if this is not the sole motivation. If the person is sociopathic, knowing that one is exerting power over women who are socially bullied into silence can be particularly thrilling.

I would practically bet money that Lia Thomas has some of these personality characteristics because a normal transwoman who cares about females would not feel comfortable exposing their penis to women without consent or using their superior strength and speed to ruin women's competitions. On the other hand, trans ideology encourages this narcissistic and psychopathic behavior while calling it justice. See also Rachel McKinnon (aka Veronica Ivy).

Last but not least, you're out of touch with current social norms among young people. In educated circles, people who are white, "cis," and/or heterosexual are considered morally inferior. The mythological structure of critical race theory does not allow white people to identify as POC, but queer theory's dogma almost requires its practitioners to challenge "normativity." There is a strong incentive for people to identify out of "cis" and heterosexuality. This ideology also defines "cis," not as acceptance of one's natal body, but as identification with gender stereotypes. By this definition, call me trans because I don't identify with femininity. In fact, I'm unfeminine enough to insist that girls and women should not have to sacrifice opportunities to protect other people's feelings. Heterosexuality is also considered an effect of power within this worldview, so being straight doesn't mean that you're attracted to the other sex, it means that you're complicit in an oppressive power system. Many kids are rewarded, not punished, for LGBTQ identification.

To all of you men calling for inclusion, has it occurred to you that that also means accepting transwomen as women without exception? This means that you accept transwomen as potential sexual partners based on identity claims alone. I'm not saying this to ridicule transwomen or their bodies, but to point out the hypocrisy of so many of you would would not be willing to date, have sex with, or marry a woman-identified person who has a penis. In the world of social constructionist trans ideology, this makes you a transphobe and a genital fetishist.

Former Iowa Great wrote:

How does anyone know what goes on in the mind of another? And why does their purpose matter? You didn't answer my question about prohibiting Africans from entering US road races if their purpose is to win money. You sound sort of bigoted if you are basing your decisions on intent or motives.

It’s because a man claiming they are a woman to win in woman sports is irrational. Your argument is claiming that irrational thought will become the norm.

If you have even the slightest understanding of philosophy, history, or ethics you could understand that irrational thought does not became a majority viewpoint because it’s essence is irrational.

Africans running in US road races is not comparable what so ever. I don’t need to answer your question because they aren’t comparable in any way.

Intent is very important. Getting back at irrational thought. There is a possibility I COULD just someday decide to cut my legs off and make a stew out of them, but I would never do that because it’s irrational. There’s no logic or reason behind it.

No athlete is claiming they are female if they are not because there is no rationality behind it.

Ahh yes, because people would claim a different gender for attention

They could do anything else in the world for attention, but they would go through the process of switching gender to get attention.

You’re failing to grasp rationalism.

Don’t tell me I’m out of touch with young people. I am a young person. Your post is complete nonsense

No. I am not claiming that it will become the norm. Your reading comprehension is greatly lacking if you think that you read that somewhere.

I don't understand why you would discriminate based on intent. I would go through hormone therapy and compete as a woman if I were younger. It seems perfectly rational to me if it means earning a full scholarship to a school like Stanford. Are you saying that you would want to prohibit me from competing? Why would you discriminate based on what is going on in my brain?

If you think it’s rational for you to go through gender transition, suffer all the unnecessary discrimination that trans people face just so you could get a sports scholarship, even though you at heart don’t believe you are trans…I don’t know what to say. Either you’re lying or don’t think rationally. I’m not going to argue with an irrationally transphobic person

I want to ask you a very straight forward question. Do you believe trans people exist? To put it more bluntly, do you believe somebody born with a penis can be a woman and somebody born with a vagina can be a man?

Former Iowa Great wrote:

You are incorrect. Many people do not believe that boys have an advantage over girls even though the data is there to support it. The Iowa Union is trying to figure out how to handle the situation. She merely provided factual data that they otherwise seem to not be aware of.

That’s not true all. If there are people who believe that, they will be taken as seriously as flat earthers and dismissed on the spot.

This tweet.

Here's the thing. I'm not some right wing troll. I believe trans people are people and trans kids, especially deserve equal opportunity to play sports. I believe especially where youth sports are concerned, we take them to seriously anyways and kids should be able to be themselves, have fun, learn a sport, learn sportsmanship, make friends, and engage. It's okay if a trans girl plays on your 8 year old daughter's softball team. Your daughter even might make a friend! Think of that!

I do think that fairness matters more and more the higher up the echelon you go. I have to remind everyone for example that Lia Thomas is NOT a kid. She's an adult on an NCAA D1 team--and D1 sports aren't something that all 18-22 year olds are entitled to. Changing the rules mid way through the season is such a clear attack on one athlete that it's hard for me to not see that as wildly unfair for Lia, but the rules should change to ensure fairness for cisgender women, who matter too.

Now for the problem with David's tweet.

David wants to protect trans kids. Congratulations so do I. But at the expense of....another...kid? Ainsley is a kid. He may disagree with her but she's a high school kid! David, an adult, a member of the running media, thinks that because he has the moral high ground he can use his platform to attack....other kids. But that's not how this works. If you're an adult who attacks trans kids--by naming them the way so many did with the two high school girls in CT, I'm sorry but you're a freaking bully. If you're an adult who attacks cis kids the way David just did, by cryptically sending out this mean tweet, I'm sorry but you're a bully too.

Surely there is a way that David, an adult, a member of the running media, can speak up and speak loudly on behalf of trans children without dragging other teenage girls through the mud? Teenagers change their minds and evolve on so many issues. Maybe Ainsley will or maybe she won't. But attacking a kid just makes David look like a scold at best and a bad person at worst.

So TLDR: members of the running media please don't attack kids, trans or cis. and go Nikki. Iike their message here. Trans kids get attacked a lot and shouldn't be.

Thank you for your excellent post. I agree with you 100%.

You lost me there. If I transition, then I am transgender by definition. Who are you to tell me what is in by brain is wrong? Isn't that the very thing you are arguing for? So my brain tells me that I want to be a woman in order to gain a scholarship while another's brain tells them they want to be a woman because they will be happier that way for no logical reason? You just stated the logical reasons not to transition. What exactly is your criteria that I or someone else needs to provide for you to accept us?

It seems you are "out of touch" with the reality of Middle America. I have been in higher ed for over three decades. Two years on West Coast, and the rest in either South or Midwest. I can tell you we still have many LGBTQ students in their closets in the school I currently teach at. (Regional comprehensive university in Midwest.) How do I know? I have taught First Year Seminar, and they personally let me know they are LGBTQ and ask me not to share the information with other students. There is still very strong homophobia and transphobia among students who grew up in conservative religious families.

I know the situations are a bit different in the big cities and the college towns on the coast. But they do not represent the whole country, no matter what the corporate media make you believe.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Former Iowa Great wrote:

You are incorrect. Many people do not believe that boys have an advantage over girls even though the data is there to support it. The Iowa Union is trying to figure out how to handle the situation. She merely provided factual data that they otherwise seem to not be aware of.

That’s not true all. If there are people who believe that, they will be taken as seriously as flat earthers and dismissed on the spot.

Umm... ever heard of Veronica Ivery (aka Rachel McKinnon)?

Wise Old Man:

I will use the team "biological male" since "boy" is not acceptable to you. I would like to continue this conversation so I will acquiesce.

I will answer your questions:

Is your daughter only happy if she wins?

No, she did go on to have a very successful HS and college career earning multiple first-team Division All-American. She didn't have a shot at winning those races but goals her goals were reached. Scholarships were earned, PRs run, so in your view, all's well that ends well. I don't think she would've been able to dedicate herself to a sport that didn't provide a fair playing field. As of now that field is still not fair in NCAA as you believe it should be, so when she did lose out to a biological male in HS she would just have to accept that it could happen again in college. Do you think there are no mental health aspects to this?

You are imagining a world in which suddenly there are 10 trans girls on your HS team and your daughter doesn’t make the varsity?

I wouldn't worry about her losing a spot on the varsity team to 10 boys, there were hardly 10 boys in our league that could beat her, states was a different story. For the team I coach now I would be very disappointed for the 7th girl on the team that did not get to run at states because she was displaced by a biological male. Not sure where you are going with numbers, I'm guessing as with age you have a certain threshold of how many biological males are allowed to compete with girls? You made 18 the age at which we can begin to tell a biological male he can not compete in the women's category. So if it was only my daughter who lost out on a title I shouldn't complain, I have to wait until there are enough girls affected?

As for my son losing his spot in a chorus, is there an advantage to being a woman when it comes to being a singer? You did acknowledge that males have physical advantages over females in sports, are you stating the same advantage for females with voice? I believe most of the successful singers in opera, Broadway, pop, rock, soul, rap are men. Taylor Swift is an example of this not being true but if you follow her career she has many times brought attention to different obstacles she had to overcome being a woman in a male-dominated industry.

Not sure why your position is "better" that we can allow certain biological males to compete with girls. Mine seems more consistent.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

That’s not true all. If there are people who believe that, they will be taken as seriously as flat earthers and dismissed on the spot.

Umm... ever heard of Veronica Ivery (aka Rachel McKinnon)?

She claims that women are good enough to play in MLB, NFL, NHL, on the PGA tour, mens tennis, TDF and people believe her? Drooling while she said any of that wouldn’t make her any less credible.

Thank you for your response. I mean this sincerely. I’m trying to square the circle and treat everybody with as much fairness and empathy as possible and I don’t think consistency is critical. All the time we have different rules at different levels of competition. I’m sure your team has a no cut policy. You have boys running 6+ minutes for 1600, but that’s ok. This same boy cannot go to a D1 school and insist he be allowed to compete on the team. If your daughter lost an opportunity to be state champion that would stink, but if another trans girl was denied her very existence as a girl and told her identity is not valued or believed in essence by being forced to compete only in the boys’ division, that would also stink. I think at the youth and HS level that latter outcome is worse. I understand if you think differently. Maybe compromise is impossible or inappropriate.? If I’m really pushed, then I would echo the quote of Brooke Ford who wrote, “I believe treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be.”

Do you really think your daughter would have quit if there was a trans girl or two better than her? As for the numbers, yes, it matters. I do not think it would be acceptable for an entire girls varsity race to be comprised of only trans girls. I don’t think this will ever happen. If there were truly so many trans girls running, I think we need to think of another solution. I can’t give you a fixed cut off and I’m nervous still about the whole separate but equal problem. As for the chorus, yes, a chorus director might like the pure alto voice of a trans boy and bump your son off.

Wise Old Man wrote:

I want to ask you a very straight forward question. Do you believe trans people exist? To put it more bluntly, do you believe somebody born with a penis can be a woman and somebody born with a vagina can be a man?

Yes, I believe trans people exist. Obviously. We all know they exist. That doesn't mean that trans women "are" women in the normal sense of the word woman. So , can someone born with a penis "be" a woman? No, I don't think so, unless maybe you are talking about someone who was born intersex but is really more on the female side.

Getting back to trans people in sports, I think it's quite disturbing that the women on the Penn swim team have to share a locker room with Lia Thomas, and they have a right to feel that way as well. Why do her feelings get to trump theirs?

GD wrote:

For the sole purpose? This is a nonsense demand. Human motivation is more complex than this. I wrote a lengthy post earlier in this thread outlining the theoretical underpinnings of today's trans activism and why its flawed mythological understanding of human nature is attractive to people with personality disorders. People with such personality disorders may claim a trans identity for a variety of reasons, including attention, validation, and power. These motives may include wanting the accolates and attention that comes with going from average athlete to a champion, even if this is not the sole motivation. If the person is sociopathic, knowing that one is exerting power over women who are socially bullied into silence can be particularly thrilling.

I know different people have different motive for doing the same thing. So I can see how some trans people make transition for attention. (Or at least that's part of their motivation.) But how common do you think that is? How many people seek for all the abuse, bulling and assault that trans people face for the sake of attention?

And why do you think so many trans people try to go "stealth"? Why do so many trans women try to "pass' as cis women? What they are doing seems to be the exact opposite of seeking attention. Or do you think it is irrelevant as long as at least one person transitions for the sake of attention?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Umm... ever heard of Veronica Ivery (aka Rachel McKinnon)?

She claims that women are good enough to play in MLB, NFL, NHL, on the PGA tour, mens tennis, TDF and people believe her? Drooling while she said any of that wouldn’t make her any less credible.

No, most people don't believe her. (I suspect some do.) But she is taken seriously enough by the corporate media to be interviewed. I don't know if they are setting her up as a caricature or not. But she is probably hurting the interests of other trans people as much as any transphobic rightwing nutjob could do.

These two questions posed by Wise Old Man are really at the heart of the issue:

Do you believe trans people exist?

Do you believe somebody born with a penis can be a woman and somebody born with a vagina can be a man?

My answers are Yes to the first question and No to the second question with the exception of the rare intersex occurrence.

My responses are not based on a religious belief. However, I do have a co-worker who would respond the same way based primarily on her deeply held religious beliefs. Whether our beliefs make us phobes or philes is for others to allege. However, calling me a phobe will not change my belief.

I recently read an article about an archeological excavation where the centuries old skeletal remains of several people were discovered. The archeologists identified the remains as men, women, boys, and girls. How do they know this without the opportunity to have ask the people that they found?

Ultimately, I see this issue being litigated in the courts, at least in the United States, but as the U.S. courts are highly partisan to the point where the results of venue and forum shopping may be the most significant factor in determining an outcome, a court result really will only be a forced resolution.