I was trying to make two points, though neither is going to persuade most on LRC. 1) I still think that EK is better at the marathon than anybody has ever been at any other event, period, greater than Bolt at the 200, greater than Crouser, etc. 2) It’s an “accident” that we have this tight grouping of championship events, 3000, 5000, 10000, 4K xc, 10K xc, and it seems that physiologically if you are truly great at one, you are probably great at all of them. The marathon sits alone. Let’s say there was also a 30K track and 50K trail championship races, then Kipchoge would likely have wracked up championships across an array of events and surfaces. The way people are scoring greatness puts the very long distance goat at a disadvantage to the distance goat, the latter just has many more chances to win.
Head to head matchups are dumb?! That has to be the most ridiculous comment I've ever read on this site. Isn't the point of running races to defeat the people you're matched up against?
Funny how Kipchoge fans point to his 2003 world championship 5k win over a tired Bekele as evidence that Kipchoge was great on the track or on Bekele's level, but then turn around and try to dismiss the many other times Bekele beat Kipchoge on the track and on the grass. You can't have it both ways!
Just as it's not Kipchoge's fault they haven't raced more times in the marathon, it's not Bekele's fault the Ethiopian federation foolishly left him off their 2016 Olympic marathon team. If Bekele was able to run in those Games, we likely wouldn't even be having this discussion because Bekele would have won, evidenced by the fact that he nearly broke the world record just a month after those Games.
Yes, they are contemporaries. They are only 2 years apart in age, and they have been competing on the senior circuit in the same years. The only difference is Bekele got his start one year earlier.
Kipchoge did not peak starting in 2010. He just discovered in 2013 the one and only event in which he could dominate and challenge a world record. He realized his true gift was being a great marathoner. Good for him!
Kipchoge has been consistently dominant in one event. Bekele was consistently dominant in multiple events and surfaces. And for good measure Bekele achieved a PB in the marathon that's on par with Kipchoge's. Kipchoge does not have a track PB that's on par with Bekele's.
If you favor Kipchoge's career over Bekele's, you do you. I'll take the guy who has more Olympic gold medals, who broke more world records, has more global championships, more years in which they won a global championship or world marathon major, the better set of personal bests, more variety of excellence, and the better head to head record.
Side note: Kipchoge's greatness and consistency in the marathon is not unprecedented. In fact, I would argue that Abebe Bikila was more accomplished in his time. Before Kipchoge won his 11 marathons, Abebe Bikila won 12. Kipchoge has won two Olympic marathon golds; so did Bikila. Kipchoge won his first Olympic marathon gold while wearing supershoes that gave him a competitive advantage over runners who didn't have access to that technology; Bikila won his first Olympic marathon gold while running ... barefoot! Kipchoge has broken the marathon world record once; Bikila broke it twice. Kipchoge lowered the marathon world record by 78 seconds; Bikila lowered it by 104 seconds.
Bikila, seriously? That was when the marathon was a novelty event and the fields were truly weak. Do you want to do a deep dive on that point? Do you think even your goat, Bekele could have matched Zatopek in 52 in this modern era? Of course not. Is Zatopek’s 52 Olympics truly greater than Bekele in2008? Definitely not. Also, I’m not saying head to head match ups are unimportant, I’m talking about simply counting the number of wins as a market of dominance. If your the better 5/10 runner, of course you will have more wins. Yes, Bekele is a better 5/10 runner than Kipchoge and Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele. What I’m saying, and what your not refuting, is that Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele is a 5/10 runner and Kipchoge is a better 5/10 runner than Bekele is a marathon runner, so EK > KB. Everybody knows the 5/10 are highly linked and double champions are not that rare. I do not think that Bekele had a better Olympic career than Kipchoge and if the latter managed to win in Paris it would be a rout.
You write: "Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele is a 5/10 runner and Kipchoge is a better 5/10 runner than Bekele is a marathon runner, so EK > KB. Everybody knows the 5/10 are highly linked"
This is what you need to pretend for your claim to be true:
-- that, in order to offset Kipchoge's dominance in one event, Bekele's performances in a variety of distances (3k, 5k, 10k, 4k XC, 12k XC) on different surfaces all count as only greatness at one distance on one surface
-- that we must take note of Kipchoge's WMM victories, many of which came in races where he faced only one or two other truly super-elite foes, while forgetting entirely about Bekele's Golden/Diamond League victories, the most impressive of which came against stacked fields against the very best distance runners of his era
I was trying to make two points, though neither is going to persuade most on LRC. 1) I still think that EK is better at the marathon than anybody has ever been at any other event, period, greater than Bolt at the 200, greater than Crouser, etc. 2) It’s an “accident” that we have this tight grouping of championship events, 3000, 5000, 10000, 4K xc, 10K xc, and it seems that physiologically if you are truly great at one, you are probably great at all of them. The marathon sits alone. Let’s say there was also a 30K track and 50K trail championship races, then Kipchoge would likely have wracked up championships across an array of events and surfaces. The way people are scoring greatness puts the very long distance goat at a disadvantage to the distance goat, the latter just has many more chances to win.
Sorry, didn't see this post before putting up my most recent one. I would've held off otherwise.
I agree with you that Kipchoge's case is hamstrung a tad by his ability to race only two 'thons per year. It really limits the number of opportunities to demonstrate his greatness, though I agree with you also that his consistency is amazing.
I don't quite agree that "the marathon sits alone," though. I've always wanted to see what Kipchoge could do in an all-out half marathon during this peak period of marathon performance. If he were to bag a world record at that distance, that would seriously bolster his credentials in the GOAT debate, at least in my opinion. I think McRunnin is right that Kipchoge's GOAT case can't really be strengthened much by further amazing marathons; he needs to show dominance in another event, too.
I was trying to make two points, though neither is going to persuade most on LRC. 1) I still think that EK is better at the marathon than anybody has ever been at any other event, period, greater than Bolt at the 200, greater than Crouser, etc. 2) It’s an “accident” that we have this tight grouping of championship events, 3000, 5000, 10000, 4K xc, 10K xc, and it seems that physiologically if you are truly great at one, you are probably great at all of them. The marathon sits alone. Let’s say there was also a 30K track and 50K trail championship races, then Kipchoge would likely have wracked up championships across an array of events and surfaces. The way people are scoring greatness puts the very long distance goat at a disadvantage to the distance goat, the latter just has many more chances to win.
Sorry, didn't see this post before putting up my most recent one. I would've held off otherwise.
I agree with you that Kipchoge's case is hamstrung a tad by his ability to race only two 'thons per year. It really limits the number of opportunities to demonstrate his greatness, though I agree with you also that his consistency is amazing.
I don't quite agree that "the marathon sits alone," though. I've always wanted to see what Kipchoge could do in an all-out half marathon during this peak period of marathon performance. If he were to bag a world record at that distance, that would seriously bolster his credentials in the GOAT debate, at least in my opinion. I think McRunnin is right that Kipchoge's GOAT case can't really be strengthened much by further amazing marathons; he needs to show dominance in another event, too.
Mostly, I’ve been just enjoying the debate. In fact, it’s pretty hard to argue against KB. Time to let this rest for now. We can start it up again when EK breaks the course record in NY this fall😉
Both have 4 Olympic Medals with Kipchoge missing all of 2012, yet Bekele missing all of 2020. Listen, I can say that at the peak of performance, no one is within earshot of 1:59 Kipchoge at his prime, but I know Geb, Kipchoge, and Joshua have all been at Bekele's best.
What about KBs track and cross country accomplishments? He has Kipchoge beat there. Kipchoge is the GOAT marathon runner but I'd say KB is GOAT distance runner as he's had more success in track and CC than Kipchoge and still threw down some good marathon times.
This^
Idk why people keep trying to dethrone Bekele with Kipchoge. Imagine thinking kipchoge is the all around goat runner while having a pretty significant LOSING head to head record against Bekele.
Only blatant ignorance can allow one to arrive to this conclusion. Kipchoge doesn't even have half of the medals Bekele has lol. Bekele :
More medals
Faster in everything other than the marathon
Winning head to head record:
3000: 2/3 wins
5000: 10/12 wins
10000: 1/1 wins
Marathon 0/3
Kipchoge
One track medal and a bunch of major marathons( which DO NOT INCLUDE EVERY SINGLE ELITE MARATHONER EVERYTIME like a world/Olympic championship )
Bekele and Mo Farah are basically the reason kipchoge started running the marathon
And as far as saying Joshua cheptegei took the 5-10 crown. No not even remotely close lol He didn't even get double gold at the Olympics. Something Bekele has done twice in 2009 and 2008 followed up with 11 world xc titles. Bekele is the greatest 10k and XC runner of all time.
There is NO logical rebuttal to this regarding cheptegei or kipchoge case closed lmao. Their only historically great claims to fame are world records and kipchoge is obviously the greatest marathoner ever.
Mr. Harding, I believe you are not understanding the point being made by "big daddy." The point is that Bekele ran just about as fast as Kipchoge did, on the very same course, in Kipchoge's best event, just one year later. Are Kipchoge's personal best times close to Bekele's in the 5K or 10K?
The beauty of this debate is that Bekele and Kipchoge are contemporaries. Often, GOAT debates are difficult to resolve because they involve making comparisons between people who competed in different eras. We are left to imagine what the outcome might have been if we got to see them race each other. In this case, we don't have to wonder. Bekele and Kipchoge have raced each other 22 times across multiple distances and surfaces, and Bekele has been the victor 14 of those times, a win rate of 64%. All claims that Kipchoge is superior are immediately refuted by this fact. Add to that the fact that Bekele's collection of personal best times are better than Kipchoge's. One cannot be the GOAT if he has a contemporary who defeated him 64% of the time and has a better set of personal bests. There really is no debate. Bekele is better.
First, they are not truly contemporaries in the way you suggest. Peak Bekele was 2000-10 and peak Kipchoge was 2010-present. Also, this win counting is just a stupid way to compare them. When your dominant event is the marathon of course you can’t wrack up as many wins and titles as you can in the 5/10/xc. Head to head match ups are dumb too. Bekele seems incapable of beating Kipchoge in the marathon. That Kipchoge did not get more chances to prove this is not on EK. I’ll say it again, Kipchoge’s dominance in the marathon is greater and more remarkable than Bekele’s at the shorter distances. If you are the fastest 5000 runner in the world, you generally win. That’s just not the history of the marathon. To win with the consistency of EK over this many years is a freakish accomplishment not even hinted at by the other great marathoners. Let’s not discount the 1:59:40 either. I know all the purists hate it, but it was a significant achievement. Yes, KB popped a great run in Berlin, but yes, EK took him down in 2003. These are one offs. Tell me, would you rather have won 2 marathon majors, a silver and two bronze majors and have the 2nd fastest time ever, or win a WC 5000, WC silver, world junior xc gold, Olympic silver and bronze. Close call. I’ll take Kipchoge.
Also not mentioned in my other reply. How many more times will kipchoge run Berlin, London, or science fair races?
Of his 12 marathons 7 of them are London/Berlin and 2 are olympics
Yes, Bekele is a better 5/10 runner than Kipchoge and Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele. What I’m saying, and what your not refuting, is that Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele is a 5/10 runner and Kipchoge is a better 5/10 runner than Bekele is a marathon runner, so EK > KB.
That's an interesting angle on this debate. I hadn't considered looking at it that way. I'll give it a try:
Kipchoge marathon vs Bekele 5K/10K
Kipchoge broke the world record once and ran those two impressive exhibition time trials. On the all-time list, his best record-eligible performances rank 1st, 3rd, and 4th; that's 3 top-5 performances in the marathon. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he hasn't won any world championships, and he has won 9 majors across 7 different years (2014-2019, 2022).
Bekele broke the world record 4 times. On the all-time list, his best performances at 5K rank 2nd and 5th, and his best performances at 10K rank 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th; that's 3 top-5 performances and another top 10 time in the 10K plus 2 more top-5 performances in the 5K. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he has won world championships in 4 other years, and he has won 23 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 8 different years (2003, 2005-2009, 2011, 2013).
We can also look at their 5 best performances and how they stack up based on the World Athletics Scoring Tables:
Verdict: It's definitely close, but I believe Bekele has the edge because he has broken the world record on more than one occasion, more top-10 performances in the 10K than Kipchoge has in the marathon, major victories across more years, and a higher average point value for his top 5 performances. Kipchoge's best marathon performance is better than Bekele's best 10K, but Bekele's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best performances in his specialty are all better than Kipchoge's in his.
Kipchoge 5K/10K vs Bekele marathon
Kipchoge does not have any top 10 times in the 5K or 10K, but he is the 7th fastest performer all-time in the 5K. He won that famous 5K world championship in 2003, and he won three other global medals across 3 more years. He also won 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 5 years (2003-2005, 2008, 2010).
Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner of all time, and he has two top 10 times in the marathon, ranking 2nd and 10th. He hasn't won any Olympic or world championship medals, but he has won two marathon majors (2016 and 2019 Berlin) and has finished on the podium at three other majors: 2016 London, 2017 London, and 2021 Berlin.
Verdict: I'd say a draw. Kipchoge's world championship, 3 other global championship medals, and 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final wins outrank Bekele's 5 marathon major podium finishes and absence of any global championship medals (I blame the Ethiopian federation's 2016 mistake for Bekele not having an Olympic medal in the marathon). On the other hand, looking at times and placement on the all-time top 10 lists favors Bekele. Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner ever while Kipchoge is "only" the 7th fastest at 5K. Bekele's 5 best marathon times have a higher average point value than Kipchoge's 5 best performances at 5K/10K. Plus Bekele's top 2 marathon times have much higher point values than anything Kipchoge did at 5/10. Overall, it's very close, basically a toss-up!
Summary and Additional Consideration
If we merely look at their track and marathon performances, it's very close. Bekele has the edge in his specialty events, and they're basically even in their non-specialties.
Of course, merely looking at their track and marathon performances omits an analysis of what they did in cross country, which should absolutely be considered a separate category. As I've stated previously, Bekele's quintuple-double at world cross is phenomenal. It is not a guarantee that someone who is great at 5K/10K on the track will also be great in cross country at the global level, or vice versa.
For proof, look at Haile Gebrselassie's finishes at World Cross: 1993: 7th 1994: 3rd 1996: 5th
Similarly, we can look at the other two modern day runners who have consistently dominated at cross country besides Bekele: Paul Tergat and Geoffrey Kamworor. They won a combined 0 (zero) gold medals on the track.
Track and cross country require different strengths. One involves running laps on a flat oval, the other requires running over hill and dale (and in mud). Bekele's ability to consistently dominate at both is exceptional. He should be recognized for this.
Yes, Bekele is a better 5/10 runner than Kipchoge and Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele. What I’m saying, and what your not refuting, is that Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele is a 5/10 runner and Kipchoge is a better 5/10 runner than Bekele is a marathon runner, so EK > KB.
That's an interesting angle on this debate. I hadn't considered looking at it that way. I'll give it a try:
Kipchoge marathon vs Bekele 5K/10K
Kipchoge broke the world record once and ran those two impressive exhibition time trials. On the all-time list, his best record-eligible performances rank 1st, 3rd, and 4th; that's 3 top-5 performances in the marathon. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he hasn't won any world championships, and he has won 9 majors across 7 different years (2014-2019, 2022).
Bekele broke the world record 4 times. On the all-time list, his best performances at 5K rank 2nd and 5th, and his best performances at 10K rank 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th; that's 3 top-5 performances and another top 10 time in the 10K plus 2 more top-5 performances in the 5K. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he has won world championships in 4 other years, and he has won 23 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 8 different years (2003, 2005-2009, 2011, 2013).
We can also look at their 5 best performances and how they stack up based on the World Athletics Scoring Tables:
Verdict: It's definitely close, but I believe Bekele has the edge because he has broken the world record on more than one occasion, more top-10 performances in the 10K than Kipchoge has in the marathon, major victories across more years, and a higher average point value for his top 5 performances. Kipchoge's best marathon performance is better than Bekele's best 10K, but Bekele's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best performances in his specialty are all better than Kipchoge's in his.
Kipchoge 5K/10K vs Bekele marathon
Kipchoge does not have any top 10 times in the 5K or 10K, but he is the 7th fastest performer all-time in the 5K. He won that famous 5K world championship in 2003, and he won three other global medals across 3 more years. He also won 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 5 years (2003-2005, 2008, 2010).
Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner of all time, and he has two top 10 times in the marathon, ranking 2nd and 10th. He hasn't won any Olympic or world championship medals, but he has won two marathon majors (2016 and 2019 Berlin) and has finished on the podium at three other majors: 2016 London, 2017 London, and 2021 Berlin.
Verdict: I'd say a draw. Kipchoge's world championship, 3 other global championship medals, and 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final wins outrank Bekele's 5 marathon major podium finishes and absence of any global championship medals (I blame the Ethiopian federation's 2016 mistake for Bekele not having an Olympic medal in the marathon). On the other hand, looking at times and placement on the all-time top 10 lists favors Bekele. Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner ever while Kipchoge is "only" the 7th fastest at 5K. Bekele's 5 best marathon times have a higher average point value than Kipchoge's 5 best performances at 5K/10K. Plus Bekele's top 2 marathon times have much higher point values than anything Kipchoge did at 5/10. Overall, it's very close, basically a toss-up!
Summary and Additional Consideration
If we merely look at their track and marathon performances, it's very close. Bekele has the edge in his specialty events, and they're basically even in their non-specialties.
Of course, merely looking at their track and marathon performances omits an analysis of what they did in cross country, which should absolutely be considered a separate category. As I've stated previously, Bekele's quintuple-double at world cross is phenomenal. It is not a guarantee that someone who is great at 5K/10K on the track will also be great in cross country at the global level, or vice versa.
For proof, look at Haile Gebrselassie's finishes at World Cross: 1993: 7th 1994: 3rd 1996: 5th
Similarly, we can look at the other two modern day runners who have consistently dominated at cross country besides Bekele: Paul Tergat and Geoffrey Kamworor. They won a combined 0 (zero) gold medals on the track.
Track and cross country require different strengths. One involves running laps on a flat oval, the other requires running over hill and dale (and in mud). Bekele's ability to consistently dominate at both is exceptional. He should be recognized for this.
Wow, thank you for this time consuming and excellent analysis. As I mentioned before, I concede! I do think you are missing one important metric, though maybe you have the data available to you. I don’t have the time to look it up. The marathon seems uniquely difficult to dominate. Kipchoge has won an astounding 11/13 (84.6%) major marathons and Olympic marathons he has entered. Who has the second best major marathon winning percentage and what is it? What is KBs winning percentage for 5/10/ global championships entered and for 5/10/xc championships entered and assuming he’s the best, who’s second in terms winning %? I’m interested in the gaps between these goats and those behind them.
One last point, though you mention EKs marathon exhibitions, you then ignore them. I get it, these are controversial, but of course, if you assigned him the scoring table points, now EK is easily on top. EK’s breaking of the 2 hour barrier should move the needle. It certainly did with the general public.
One last point, though you mention EKs marathon exhibitions, you then ignore them. I get it, these are controversial, but of course, if you assigned him the scoring table points, now EK is easily on top. EK’s breaking of the 2 hour barrier should move the needle. It certainly did with the general public.
Yeah, I agree those exhibitions were amazing. The challenge with including them in any comparison with Bekele is Bekele did not have such an opportunity during his 5K/10K prime, so it wouldn't be fair to include those exhibitions in the analysis of their best times. We can only imagine what Bekele might have been able to run in the 5 and 10 if he had a similar exhibition setup. If we look at Kipchoge's best record-eligible time alongside his best exhibition, his exhibition time was 1.63% faster. Bekele running 1.63% faster in exhibition conditions would put him at 12:25 for 5K and 25:52 for 10K!
Interesting question about win percentages. I appreciate the different fresh angles you bring to these comparisons, as they help me to expand my thinking. I unfortunately don't have time to do the research on that question, but maybe someone else can.
Love how those in the Bekele camp only speak of head to head or XC… but fail to mention Geb’s 29 World Records. It’s not even close.
Wait, so you want to call Kipchoge the greatest distance runner of all time while he has a significant head to head losing record to another runner. Bekele came right after Geb and ran faster. case closed. That is like me saying prove how Kipchoge is better than Bekele without talking about the marathon lol.
One last point, though you mention EKs marathon exhibitions, you then ignore them. I get it, these are controversial, but of course, if you assigned him the scoring table points, now EK is easily on top. EK’s breaking of the 2 hour barrier should move the needle. It certainly did with the general public.
Yeah, I agree those exhibitions were amazing. The challenge with including them in any comparison with Bekele is Bekele did not have such an opportunity during his 5K/10K prime, so it wouldn't be fair to include those exhibitions in the analysis of their best times. We can only imagine what Bekele might have been able to run in the 5 and 10 if he had a similar exhibition setup. If we look at Kipchoge's best record-eligible time alongside his best exhibition, his exhibition time was 1.63% faster. Bekele running 1.63% faster in exhibition conditions would put him at 12:25 for 5K and 25:52 for 10K!
Interesting question about win percentages. I appreciate the different fresh angles you bring to these comparisons, as they help me to expand my thinking. I unfortunately don't have time to do the research on that question, but maybe someone else can.
Very fast and superficial analysis for those with at least 8 such races (done very fast so potential errors): On the track Bekele won 8/12 outdoor global championship races he entered. Geb won 6/10 (all victories and all but one attempt were in the 10 of course). EK has won 9/11 WMM, global championship marathons entered, and I think next best is the tainted Wilson Kipsang at 5/13.
Forgot the Olympics for EK 🤦🏻♂️, 11/13….even better….
Bekele almost has as many actually world/Olympic victories as kipchoge marathon wins...and no a WMM win isn't close to being equivalent to a global title
Love how those in the Bekele camp only speak of head to head or XC… but fail to mention Geb’s 29 World Records. It’s not even close.
Wait, so you want to call Kipchoge the greatest distance runner of all time while he has a significant head to head losing record to another runner. Bekele came right after Geb and ran faster. case closed. That is like me saying prove how Kipchoge is better than Bekele without talking about the marathon lol.
Your reading comprehension is limited; I said Geb not Kipchoge.
you are all over-stating Cross Country. Limited event not everyone ran it and don’t forget than Geb beat Tergat at World XC multiple times.
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