Did you watch the race? Walton went out in like 65/2:15. Good coaching?
I did not watch the race.
I trust Rob Myers perspective and guidance.
62/2:15 is obviously reckless, but now he can dial it back and find the sweet spot. Sometimes finding those parameters is what development takes, even at the cost of a po-dunk early-mid season invitational. Learning these things for postseason and possibly national meets next year and into the future are more valuable than many immediately realize.
I am not suggesting your initial perspective that it is immediately a step back is wrong. But to develop a young, competitive, potentially very talented runner sometimes takes all sorts of approaches to develop parameters. A step back to move two forward so-to-speak.
How this approach?
"Hey Andy, this kid Ben is the best guy in a 4-state area. And Ryan Smith isn't too far behind. You aren't going to run away from them, but this is a great opportinuty to learn how to race. Just don't be stupid. Get in a good position early, sit on these guys, and race like hell during that last mile. Let's see what you can do!"
"Hey Andy, this kid Ben is the best guy in a 4-state area. And Ryan Smith isn't too far behind. You aren't going to run away from them, but this is a great opportinuty to learn how to race. Just don't be stupid. Get in a good position early, sit on these guys, and race like hell during that last mile. Let's see what you can do!"
Great! That is a fantastic approach. And one I may want for an outstanding runner at some point. But in my eyes it is more for established, experienced, & proven runners.
In my experience coaching national level HS runners, you want them to try everything in their formative years. Out too fast, too slow, surges, builds,...and learn about competition and more so their own strengths and weaknesses. Then eventually settle into what is best for them.
I was responding to a phrase of "makes no sense" when in fact for an unproven junior new to the scene, while it may not be the best current approach, it might be what is best in terms of long-term development. As a coach I like what you described but would have praised his 'going for it' before describing adjustments to be made.
To develop to a state and national level you do not want to coach a kid to be overly conservative too early in the process. Allow his patience and savvy to come naturally without diminishing his current aggressiveness. It is much easier/smarter to dial him back when needed than try to teach aggressiveness.
Wow. Is Gabelman simply the best in the MI-OH-IN tri-state area? That's something I hadn't thought of.
I will definitely stick with him for my prediction for winning the D1 title in November--all cylinders are firing with him at the moment.
Based on Berlin, I will keep Smith of Kilbourne in my top five but am hesitant to put Kimmel there. I think Kimmel will finish somewhere in places 7-12 as will Weston Day.
Two runners of note: Cope of Toledo St. Francis and Rudraraju of Orange, usually their teams' no. 1 runners. They were only second for their respective teams at Berlin. How will they finish in November? Based on their histories, they should be top 20 runners, but I am not sure that will happen.
Jackson with a pretty comfortable win at their county meet. 3-7 spread of less than 8 seconds. They'll probably need a few of them to run a bit faster if they're to win at Obetz, but we probably won't learn much more about them until then (NEO isn't as competitive as Central/SW Ohio).
I like it that Stark has a county championship meet. That seems to be a good one on a year-to-year basis. Does any other county in Ohio have such a meet?
Agreed, that 3-7 pack for Mass. Jackson looks good as long as they can reduce the spread. As we have known, they can do some real damage in November. On paper they can win it all . . . on paper -- good thing the races are contested on grass, not paper.
Let's see how it all comes out. As usual, late October and the first weekend of November will be really good.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
"Hey Andy, this kid Ben is the best guy in a 4-state area. And Ryan Smith isn't too far behind. You aren't going to run away from them, but this is a great opportinuty to learn how to race. Just don't be stupid. Get in a good position early, sit on these guys, and race like hell during that last mile. Let's see what you can do!"
Great! That is a fantastic approach. And one I may want for an outstanding runner at some point. But in my eyes it is more for established, experienced, & proven runners.
In my experience coaching national level HS runners, you want them to try everything in their formative years. Out too fast, too slow, surges, builds,...and learn about competition and more so their own strengths and weaknesses. Then eventually settle into what is best for them.
I was responding to a phrase of "makes no sense" when in fact for an unproven junior new to the scene, while it may not be the best current approach, it might be what is best in terms of long-term development. As a coach I like what you described but would have praised his 'going for it' before describing adjustments to be made.
To develop to a state and national level you do not want to coach a kid to be overly conservative too early in the process. Allow his patience and savvy to come naturally without diminishing his current aggressiveness. It is much easier/smarter to dial him back when needed than try to teach aggressiveness.
I'll say it one more time... this is fine as a matter of routine "learning to race". But you also need to know who you're racing against. This wasn't a D2 piddle meet. These kids were the best D1 kids around, and charging out like a madman isn't progress. He wont get to race that kind of competion again until he sees Cernansky or Snyder at Obetz. If he goes out in 65 again, he won't win. Cernansky will run him down and outkick him.
I look forward to seeing this kid race again. Def Obetz.... maybe NXR. I'm sure he'll be easy to spot in Terre Haute, sprinting and leading the field as they crest that long opening hill.
Peter G... likely yes on Ilg. I watched him nearly steal the indoor 3200 crown from Ackley last March.
1. Gabelman
2. Richuitti
3. Trapp
4. Smith
5. Ilg
And Gabelman is likely right there with Cameron Todd from IN, winner of Nike Twilight. Doing reverse math... they both beat Weston Day recently by about 30 seconds. Gabelman at Lancaster (14:49-15:22), and Todd at Nike (14:48-15:14).
Whoa we're talking like this kid is the next Bob Kennedy. Is he really a phenom? You make it sound like he just stepped onto the course this season
That's kind of my point. Maybe he is the next Bob Kennedy. Maybe he has already run the best he ever will. There is no way to know.
He did just step onto the course this season.....at that level. This is his first season mixing it up with the big boys, so who knows where it goes. His coach owes it to him to treat him and every kid as though they are the next Kennedy. If he is treated as a plow horse instead of a race horse it seems pretty clear where he will end up.
I'll say it one more time... this is fine as a matter of routine "learning to race". But you also need to know who you're racing against. This wasn't a D2 piddle meet. These kids were the best D1 kids around, and charging out like a madman isn't progress.
Seeing each race as "the pinnacle" is a mistake to long term progress in my eyes. Time will tell if he and his coach use this to learn and progress. If they do, then "makes no sense" is pretty misguided. If they repeat the same thing over and over expecting a change in results, then it was not a smart venture to allow him to cut loose and see what he has.
Personally I believe a former world level runner as a coach understands how to plan long term without dulling his aggressiveness.
I'll say it one more time... this is fine as a matter of routine "learning to race". But you also need to know who you're racing against. This wasn't a D2 piddle meet. These kids were the best D1 kids around, and charging out like a madman isn't progress.
Seeing each race as "the pinnacle" is a mistake to long term progress in my eyes. Time will tell if he and his coach use this to learn and progress. If they do, then "makes no sense" is pretty misguided. If they repeat the same thing over and over expecting a change in results, then it was not a smart venture to allow him to cut loose and see what he has.
Personally I believe a former world level runner as a coach understands how to plan long term without dulling his aggressiveness.
Sometimes a "world level runner" has a hard time remembering what it's like to be a novice who hasn't yet learned how to race. You give too much credence to Myers just because he himself was a great miler. You don't see the Coffman kids charging out ahead of Gabelman now do you? Further... their 2nd guy did the same thing - out waaay too fast in the top 5-6 - and got eaten up by the good D1 kids, fading to 18.
Jeez fellas. Easy on the kid. Kimmel too. So they went out too fast. They'll learn. Getting your butt handed to you will do that.
Wow! Someone who doesn't think the po-dunk early season meet is the end all.
Becoming great or more so, as good as you can be, is a process not a week to week "this meet means everything" approach. Getting your butt handed to you is something everyone will get at one time or another. The key is learning from it as you say.
You either have solid experience or are ahead of your time in understanding training and racing.
Peter G... likely yes on Ilg. I watched him nearly steal the indoor 3200 crown from Ackley last March.
1. Gabelman
2. Richuitti
3. Trapp
4. Smith
5. Ilg
This is a nice variation on the top five that some have predicted with Smith as 3rd and Trapp as 4th. Your list presents a nice flip on that and I could go with that.
Out of the NW Ohio regional for D1 boys, I think that Connor Long of Anthony Wayne and Anthony Clark of Perrysburg can be top 15 finishers at Obetz. I want to say that Long will finish 10th at the state meet.
Out of the NW Ohio regional for D1 boys, I think that Connor Long of Anthony Wayne and Anthony Clark of Perrysburg can be top 15 finishers at Obetz. I want to say that Long will finish 10th at the state meet.
Jackson with a pretty comfortable win at their county meet. 3-7 spread of less than 8 seconds. They'll probably need a few of them to run a bit faster if they're to win at Obetz, but we probably won't learn much more about them until then (NEO isn't as competitive as Central/SW Ohio).
I like it that Stark has a county championship meet. That seems to be a good one on a year-to-year basis. Does any other county in Ohio have such a meet?
Agreed, that 3-7 pack for Mass. Jackson looks good as long as they can reduce the spread. As we have known, they can do some real damage in November. On paper they can win it all . . . on paper -- good thing the races are contested on grass, not paper.
Let's see how it all comes out. As usual, late October and the first weekend of November will be really good.
I agree there should be more county championships. It’s a fun concept.
