7th september 1986 wrote:
You can't be taken seriously.
Nijel Amos 1:41.89!
Pro News/Info/Results
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now I searched a little bit:
Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha - probably the two greatest 800m runners in history - both have raced three times in Rieti. Guess what? Any six races resulted in a seasons best.
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little bit more research:
Nixon Kiprotich - 1992 silver medalist 800m - has raced also three times in Rieti. Big surprise that all three resulted in a seasons best?
These were the only athletes I have checked.
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Another thread ruined by pedants.
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Wilfred Bungei - Olympic Champion 2008 - seems to have some Rieti complex: raced there four times but has set just three times his seasons best.
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cLasRsiC wrote:
Another thread ruined by pedants.
Yes...a thread about Amos turns into arguments about Rieti, and dredging up performances from the 80's
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I am Sam wrote:
cLasRsiC wrote:
Another thread ruined by pedants.
Yes...a thread about Amos turns into arguments about Rieti, and dredging up performances from the 80's
This started because someone tried to disparage Amos' performance because of the venue.
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7th september 1986 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
What? I've never heard of these athletes! They all sound like 2nd rate Italian athletes who probably have never run on other Grand Prix/Diamond League tracks around Europe. Just like there are some Brits who get asked to run at the London and Birmingham Diamond Leagues, as it's taking place in their home country and would never get an invite to run in any otehr top venues, these Italians probably had Rieti as the highlight of their season!
You're really some laughable bloke.
You never heard of these athletes? (very important to put a "!" behind these info). Well, you are probably right, some of them might never have run in Zuerich, Brussels... And what does this tell us? That the fields in Rieti were far from as deep as on the big meetings, and therefore some listing of the number of athletes under some benchmark in Zuerich or Brussels compared to Rieti is just silly.
And for sure, all of them have trained years just for this highlight race in Rieti in September (international athletes who competed at European indoor champs and so on). You have never heard of them, but you claim to know their focus. Many many athletes have set lifetime PBs in Rieti (at least 4 in Coe's 3:29). But for sure nothing to see for you here. Laughable.
It's getting more and more silly and you sound like 12 year old child who refuses to accept reality.
The whole athletics world since decades is wondering about the fabulous times being achieved in Rieti year after year. No, not just a few as you pretend again and again. There are hundreds of examples. Since decades it's being discussed, what could be the reason for this mass of fantastic times which were run in this 2nd rate meeting at the end of the season. Nobody has questioned the fact about these times galore - only you claim all is not true and just a few top stars took opportunity of the late date (!) in the calendar. For sure, the latest meeting has the best date to achieve super fast times. What a nonsense. (why is Rieti not renowned for super performances in the field events?).
And your stupid questions like: "Why is it that not all runners behind the record setter were running PBs" are exactly that: stupid. I can ask the same nonsense: "Why is it that Jakob Ingebrigtsen this year could run 3:30.16 in Lausanne and than just 3:30.47 in Monaco?" Same for Tim Cheruiyot, Ayanleh Souleiman, Filip Ingebrigtsen.. Why is it that Alfred Kipketer could run only 1:48.68 last year in Monaco, despite a PB of 1:42.87 and a SB of 1:44.28. Why at all do you compare Farah's Monaco results with his other 1500s? Those two sub 3:29 races from Monaco were his only 1500s of any significance since 2013. I could go on and on.
Nobody questions that Monaco has seen the fastest races especially in the mens 800m and 1500m in the last decade. What could be the explanation for this? Nobody (apart from you) questions that Rieti has seen super times galore for something like 3 decades which don't fit with a (at best) 2nd rate meeting on the very latest date in the athletics calendar. What could be the explanation for this?
Coe would have run 3:28 (and would have beaten Cheruiyot and so on) on the Monaco track, but his 3:29 from Rieti for sure stands unquestioned by you. On his 7 occasions were he has run in Zuerich the 1500m (or mile) Coe could not manage to run under 3:32 (despite the fact that he focused always on this meet and Zuerich always has had probably the best date in the calendar), but on his one occasion were he has run in Rieti he did a 3:29, while being hindered by the pacemaker. But nothing to see.
You can't be taken seriously.
Rudisha has not run 3 times faster than in Rieti.
Come on said88, don't be shy - post under your usual name.
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The one thing this thread tells me is we need Rieti back to compare it with Monaco.
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there are many more examples which clearly show that Rieti produced super fast times galore:
Jose-Luis Barbosa - 1991 800m silver - has raced six times in Rieti and has set four times his seasons best
Mbulaeni Mulaudzi - 2009 800m gold - has raced two times in Rieti and has set his seasons best in both races
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Monaco - with the by far strongest fields every season - has seen super fast times in the last decade. Rieti - with in comparison weak fields - has also seen super fast times for well over 3 decades. This was shown with a lot of evidence. It's still open what might be the reasons for those fast times.
But to claim that Amos' recent sub 1:42 is worth only around 1:43, but also to claim that Ovett's and Coe's sub 3:31 resp. sub 3:30 are worth exactly that (or - for sure - better...) is pitiful.
Amos has run sub 1:42 seven years apart - Kipketer has done it 1 year apart, Rudisha 2 years apart. No other runner has done it more than once.
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7th september 1986 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
What? I've never heard of these athletes! They all sound like 2nd rate Italian athletes who probably have never run on other Grand Prix/Diamond League tracks around Europe. Just like there are some Brits who get asked to run at the London and Birmingham Diamond Leagues, as it's taking place in their home country and would never get an invite to run in any otehr top venues, these Italians probably had Rieti as the highlight of their season!
You're really some laughable bloke.
You never heard of these athletes? (very important to put a "!" behind these info). Well, you are probably right, some of them might never have run in Zuerich, Brussels... And what does this tell us? That the fields in Rieti were far from as deep as on the big meetings, and therefore some listing of the number of athletes under some benchmark in Zuerich or Brussels compared to Rieti is just silly.
And for sure, all of them have trained years just for this highlight race in Rieti in September (international athletes who competed at European indoor champs and so on). You have never heard of them, but you claim to know their focus. Many many athletes have set lifetime PBs in Rieti (at least 4 in Coe's 3:29). But for sure nothing to see for you here. Laughable.
It's getting more and more silly and you sound like 12 year old child who refuses to accept reality.
The whole athletics world since decades is wondering about the fabulous times being achieved in Rieti year after year. No, not just a few as you pretend again and again. There are hundreds of examples. Since decades it's being discussed, what could be the reason for this mass of fantastic times which were run in this 2nd rate meeting at the end of the season. Nobody has questioned the fact about these times galore - only you claim all is not true and just a few top stars took opportunity of the late date (!) in the calendar. For sure, the latest meeting has the best date to achieve super fast times. What a nonsense. (why is Rieti not renowned for super performances in the field events?).
And your stupid questions like: "Why is it that not all runners behind the record setter were running PBs" are exactly that: stupid. I can ask the same nonsense: "Why is it that Jakob Ingebrigtsen this year could run 3:30.16 in Lausanne and than just 3:30.47 in Monaco?" Same for Tim Cheruiyot, Ayanleh Souleiman, Filip Ingebrigtsen.. Why is it that Alfred Kipketer could run only 1:48.68 last year in Monaco, despite a PB of 1:42.87 and a SB of 1:44.28. Why at all do you compare Farah's Monaco results with his other 1500s? Those two sub 3:29 races from Monaco were his only 1500s of any significance since 2013. I could go on and on.
Nobody questions that Monaco has seen the fastest races especially in the mens 800m and 1500m in the last decade. What could be the explanation for this? Nobody (apart from you) questions that Rieti has seen super times galore for something like 3 decades which don't fit with a (at best) 2nd rate meeting on the very latest date in the athletics calendar. What could be the explanation for this?
Coe would have run 3:28 (and would have beaten Cheruiyot and so on) on the Monaco track, but his 3:29 from Rieti for sure stands unquestioned by you. On his 7 occasions were he has run in Zuerich the 1500m (or mile) Coe could not manage to run under 3:32 (despite the fact that he focused always on this meet and Zuerich always has had probably the best date in the calendar), but on his one occasion were he has run in Rieti he did a 3:29, while being hindered by the pacemaker. But nothing to see.
You can't be taken seriously.
Rudisha has not run 3 times faster than in Rieti.
Rieti wasn't a 2nd rate meet in terms of who went there, it just wasn't as lucrative or as busy (smaller stadium) as the likes of Brussels or Rieti. It's appeal was that it was about 10 days - 2 weeks after the main championships in any given season, which is about the right length of time to recover from a peak for another peak, while the likes of Zurich, which came about a week earlier, was perhaps too soon for some. Other benefits of Rieti was the almost guaranteed great weather, the laid back atmosphere and the lack of expectation from the World's press and media.
If you make a list of the top 10 athletes who set their 800m lifetime personal best in Rieti and compare their best time not on the Rieti track, you get a mean average difference of 0.318secs. (best non Rieti time in brackets): -
-Wilfred Bungei 1:42.34 (best non Rieti time -1:42.52), Alfred Kirwa Yego 1:42.67 (1:43.66), Mbulaeni Mulaudzi 1:42.86 (1:42.89), William Yiampoy 1:42.91 (1:43.00), Boaz Lalang 1:42.95 (1:43.29), José Luis Barbosa 1:43.08 (1:43.20), Mehdi Baala 1:43.15 (1:44.04), Benson Koech 1:43.15 (1:43.45), William Tanui 1:43.30 (1:43.39), Adam Kszczot 1:43.30 (1:43.45).
If you make a list of the top 10 athletes who set their 800m lifetime personal best in Monaco and compare their best time not on the Monaco track, you get a mean average difference of 0.452secs. (best non Monaco time in brackets): -
- Tuka 1:42.51 (1:43.84), Bosse 1:42.53 (1:43.41), Cheruiyot 1:42.54 (1:43.14), Kamel 1:42.79 (1:43.11), Souleiman 1:42.97 (1:43.08), Rotich 1:43.13 (1:43.15), Kiprop 1:43.15 (1:43.17), McBride 1:43.20 (1:43.90), Berian 1:43.34 (1:43.84). Singoei 1:43.38 (1:43.42).
So based on the fastest 10 men who have set pbs on either track, those doing so on Rieti have run times on other tracks closer to their Rieti pb than those doing the same thing in Monaco.
Another consideration is the fact that the likes of Brussels and Zurich have been the location of many Diamond League finals in recent years, and they have been as much about winning (the prize) as running a fast time. That will obviously affect the numbers of fast times over a long period. Rieti was always a more relaxed setting geared up for fast times in the middle distances.
Let's now look at another event, the 1500m, and the unsubstantiated suggestions made against the reliability of Coe's and Ovett's times on the Rieti track.
I looked at the fastest 10 individual performers on each of the following 4 tracks: - Rieti, Brussels, Zurich and Monaco.
Rieti - El G (3:26.96), Morceli (3:28.86), Lagat (3:29.3), Coe (3:29.77), Kiplagat (3:30.13), Ngeny (3:30.42), Kiprop (3:30.46), Bile (3:30.55), Kipkurui (3:30.73) & Ovett (3:30.77).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:29.80
Brussels - El G (3:26.12), Lagat (3:26.34), Baala (3:28.98), Niyongabo (3:29.18), Ngeny (3:29.19), W. Chirchir (3:29.29), Cram (3:30.15), T. Kiptanui (3:30.24), Heshko (3:30.33), A. Kipchirchir (3:30.46).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:29.03
Zurich - El G (3:26.45), Lagat (3:27.40), Ngeny (3:28.12), Cacho (3:28.95), Niyongabo (3:29.43), Rotich (3:29.91), Morceli (3:30.06), Kibowen (3:30.18), T. Cheruiyot (3:30.27), D. Komen (3:30.49).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:29.13
Monaco - Kiprop (3:26.69), El G (3:27.34), Morceli (3:27.52), Kiplagat (3:27.64), Lagat (3:27.91), T. Cheruiyot (3:28.41), Makhloufi (3:28.75), Iguider (3:28.79), Manangoi (3:28.80), Farah (3:28.81).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:28.07
Clearly Monaco is significantly faster than Brussels, Zurich and Rieti. In addition, both Zurich and Brussels are c. 0.70 faster than Rieti! If the 800 athletes all flocked to run at Rieti because it was somehow a dodgy track, then why didn't the 1500m runners who raced there experience this advantage over Zurich and Brussels ?
I did the same analysis for the 4 tracks above over 1500m, but this time just taking the 10 best performances. So, for example, 6 of the fastest 10 times run at Zurich were by El G. I haven't the time to type the individual breakdown of athletes and times (but I have it, so can type it up another time if I can be bothered), but I will give the average time for each track:-
Rieti - 3:29.37;
Brussels - 3:28.51;
Zurich - 3:27.87;
Monaco - 3:27.84.
Again, this shows that Rieti is on average c. 0.8 secs slower than Brussels for 1500m, and c. 1.5 secs slower than Zurich and Monaco. Though the difference between Zurich and Monaco is negligible, it is worth noting that whereas Zurich (along with Brussels and Rieti) comes towards the end of season, just after the major champs, when one would expect athletes to be near to peak condition, at least in a Championship year, Monaco stands alone in being in the middle of the season (usually early July) and invariably about 3 weeks before a major champs; when athletes should yet to reach their season peaks.
There is nothing sceptical or anomalous about Rieti compared to Zurich or Brussels; indeed it seems somewhat slower for 1500m races. The biggest anomaly by far is Monaco.
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Top 10 tracks x sub 1:45 performances - Zürich leading the way
1 224 Zürich Switzerland 1.41.24 Wilson Kipketer DEN 13-08-1997
2 169 Monaco France 1.41.89 Nijel Amos BOT 12-07-2019
3 121 Rieti Italy 1.41.01 David Rudisha KEN 29-08-2010
4 116 Bruxelles Belgium 1.42.20 Wilson Kipketer DEN 22-08-1997
5 98 Roma Italy 1.42.79 Wilson Kipketer DEN 07-07-1999
6 96 Nairobi Kenya 1.42.12 David Rudisha KEN 23-06-2012
7 94 London Great Britain 1.40.91 David Rudisha KEN 09-08-2012
8 94 Oslo Norway 1.42.04 David Rudisha KEN 04-06-2010
9 77 Lausanne Switzerland 1.42.61 Wilson Kipketer DEN 02-07-1997
10 76 Berlin Germany 1.41.09 David Rudisha KEN 22-08-2010
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JRinaldi wrote:
Top 10 tracks x sub 1:45 performances - Zürich leading the way
1 224 Zürich Switzerland 1.41.24 Wilson Kipketer DEN 13-08-1997
2 169 Monaco France 1.41.89 Nijel Amos BOT 12-07-2019
3 121 Rieti Italy 1.41.01 David Rudisha KEN 29-08-2010
4 116 Bruxelles Belgium 1.42.20 Wilson Kipketer DEN 22-08-1997
5 98 Roma Italy 1.42.79 Wilson Kipketer DEN 07-07-1999
6 96 Nairobi Kenya 1.42.12 David Rudisha KEN 23-06-2012
7 94 London Great Britain 1.40.91 David Rudisha KEN 09-08-2012
8 94 Oslo Norway 1.42.04 David Rudisha KEN 04-06-2010
9 77 Lausanne Switzerland 1.42.61 Wilson Kipketer DEN 02-07-1997
10 76 Berlin Germany 1.41.09 David Rudisha KEN 22-08-2010
http://www.ericr.nl/m800/trackcnt.htmlThanks for that input, coach!
Proves that if Rieti is no more special than Zurich and Monaco (a fairly recent addition to the calendar) for 800m running.
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JRinaldi wrote:
Top 10 tracks x sub 1:45 performances - Zürich leading the way
1 224 Zürich Switzerland 1.41.24 Wilson Kipketer DEN 13-08-1997
2 169 Monaco France 1.41.89 Nijel Amos BOT 12-07-2019
3 121 Rieti Italy 1.41.01 David Rudisha KEN 29-08-2010
4 116 Bruxelles Belgium 1.42.20 Wilson Kipketer DEN 22-08-1997
5 98 Roma Italy 1.42.79 Wilson Kipketer DEN 07-07-1999
6 96 Nairobi Kenya 1.42.12 David Rudisha KEN 23-06-2012
7 94 London Great Britain 1.40.91 David Rudisha KEN 09-08-2012
8 94 Oslo Norway 1.42.04 David Rudisha KEN 04-06-2010
9 77 Lausanne Switzerland 1.42.61 Wilson Kipketer DEN 02-07-1997
10 76 Berlin Germany 1.41.09 David Rudisha KEN 22-08-2010
http://www.ericr.nl/m800/trackcnt.htmlCompletely useless statistics for the question if Rieti and/or Monaco are "producing" too many fast times.
Zurich: Biggest meeting for decades (since the 1970s) - 800m always one of the big highlights - often even two races always with the worlds best runners
everything else than the most sub 1:45 times just would be extremely surprising
Monaco: big meetings since the late 1980s, but just the best middle distance fields in the last decade
2nd on the list is astonishing
Rieti: international meetings since the early 1980s until 2015 - always only few top stars in the field - latest date in the calendar - small meeting with a few hundred spectators
3rd on the list is much more astonishing than 2nd for Monaco - ahead of Brussels!, Oslo!, Berlin!, Rome!
Rome - for example - has also seen World and European champs, World Cup - one of the biggest meetings since 1980 until today - always with deep fields - but Rieti has seen much more sub 1:45 races
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Compared to Zurich, Brussels... Rieti definitely WAS a 2nd rate meeting, no room for any discussion here. A pure fact. The fields usually were filled up with a lot of 3rd rate Italians, which even the Nr.1 expert in the field, Deanouk, never has heard of. Something unheard of in Zurich, Brussels... which sometimes have 1 local athlete to meet the needs of the home crowd.
William Tanui has raced 9 times in Rieti during his career. 7 times out of this 9 races, Tanui has run his fastest time of the season. And there are many more athletes which have done something similar, also not that extreme (Nixon Kiprotich: 3 SBs out of 3 Rieti races and so on). Someone who ignores such eye-opening statistics is just not interested at all in the facts. But just to "proof" his own point of view.
Someone who expects the same number of races under some benchmark from Rieti than from Zurich or Brussels is just stupid, highly uninformed or extremely biased. Maybe all of this.
What on earth tells us the fact, that the top 10 fastest runners with lifetime 800m PB set in Monaco are on average slightly farther ahead of their Non-Monaco PB than the top 10 fastest runners with lifetime 800m PB set in Rieti?
Maybe the most easy explanation for the extremely fast times set in Monaco and Rieti is the correct one: great weather and especially good wind conditions in combination with some psychological effect: others have run super fast on this track, so I can do the same and concentrate on this one.
To claim that the Monaco times are aided in some way, but not the Rieti times is bias pur.
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fast track Rieti wrote:
William Tanui has raced 9 times in Rieti during his career. 7 times out of this 9 races, Tanui has run his fastest time of the .
No, this was not the case. On only 5 occasions did William Tanui run his season's best at Rieti - 91,92,94,96 and 98.
In the latter 2 years, Rieti (which occurred in September), is the only listed race he competed in under 1:48 all year! This would imply that in 96 and 98 he was injured all or most of the season and only managed to run a race right at the end, in Rieti. As there are no other tracks he ran on those years to compare it to, then they are pretty redundant for the purposes of using it as proof Rieti was a much quicker track.
In 90 he ran his fastest race in Brussels.
In 93 he ran his fastest race in Monaco.
In 95 he ran his fastest race in Zurich.
In 97 he ran his fastest race in Lapeenrantra.
Another interesting fact about Tanui, which would appear to counter your suggestion that he ran all his best races in Rieti, is that only 2 of his fastest 10 times achieved over 800m occurred in Rieti.
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Deanouk wrote:
fast track Rieti wrote:
William Tanui has raced 9 times in Rieti during his career. 7 times out of this 9 races, Tanui has run his fastest time of the season.
No, this was not the case. On only 5 occasions did William Tanui run his season's best at Rieti - 91,92,94,96 and 98.
In the latter 2 years, Rieti (which occurred in September), is the only listed race he competed in under 1:48 all year! This would imply that in 96 and 98 he was injured all or most of the season and only managed to run a race right at the end, in Rieti. As there are no other tracks he ran on those years to compare it to, then they are pretty redundant for the purposes of using it as proof Rieti was a much quicker track.
In 90 he ran his fastest race in Brussels.
In 93 he ran his fastest race in Monaco.
In 95 he ran his fastest race in Zurich.
In 97 he ran his fastest race in Lapeenrantra.
Another interesting fact about Tanui, which would appear to counter your suggestion that he ran all his best races in Rieti, is that only 2 of his fastest 10 times achieved over 800m occurred in Rieti.
Someone fighting for any inch of Coe's reputation (someone who has no problem at all to add a second to Amos' famous sub 1:42 from Monaco).
Wow, in 90, 93 and 97 Tanui has not done his SB (over 800m) in Rieti? What a great progress in the discussion - when Tanui hasn't raced over 800m in Rieti in these years. You are so right: while not racing some distance in Rieti, it's very difficult to get a SB.
I was indeed wrong: Tanui has raced 10 times in Rieti and on 8 of these 10 occasions a SB was the result:
in 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 96, 98, 00
not in 95, 97
Nobody has said that Tanui has ran all his best (better: fastest) races in Rieti - but MANY.
"only" 2 of his fastest 10 times achieved over 800m occurred in Rieti?
What a stretching of some easy statistics. His two fastest times are from Rieti and also his next fastest time, so "only" 2 out of ten...
This is someone "arguing" who just don't WANT to accept reality.
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fast track Rieti wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
No, this was not the case. On only 5 occasions did William Tanui run his season's best at Rieti - 91,92,94,96 and 98.
In the latter 2 years, Rieti (which occurred in September), is the only listed race he competed in under 1:48 all year! This would imply that in 96 and 98 he was injured all or most of the season and only managed to run a race right at the end, in Rieti. As there are no other tracks he ran on those years to compare it to, then they are pretty redundant for the purposes of using it as proof Rieti was a much quicker track.
In 90 he ran his fastest race in Brussels.
In 93 he ran his fastest race in Monaco.
In 95 he ran his fastest race in Zurich.
In 97 he ran his fastest race in Lapeenrantra.
Another interesting fact about Tanui, which would appear to counter your suggestion that he ran all his best races in Rieti, is that only 2 of his fastest 10 times achieved over 800m occurred in Rieti.
Someone fighting for any inch of Coe's reputation (someone who has no problem at all to add a second to Amos' famous sub 1:42 from Monaco).
Wow, in 90, 93 and 97 Tanui has not done his SB (over 800m) in Rieti? What a great progress in the discussion - when Tanui hasn't raced over 800m in Rieti in these years. You are so right: while not racing some distance in Rieti, it's very difficult to get a SB.
I was indeed wrong: Tanui has raced 10 times in Rieti and on 8 of these 10 occasions a SB was the result:
in 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 96, 98, 00
not in 95, 97
Nobody has said that Tanui has ran all his best (better: fastest) races in Rieti - but MANY.
"only" 2 of his fastest 10 times achieved over 800m occurred in Rieti?
What a stretching of some easy statistics. His two fastest times are from Rieti and also his next fastest time, so "only" 2 out of ten...
This is someone "arguing" who just don't WANT to accept reality.
No, you are still posting inaccuracies! Tanui did not run season best times in Rieti in 90 or 93! I’ve already stated that and where they were set!
Please get your facts right if you want to make a serious argument.
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Deanouk wrote:
fast track Rieti wrote:
Someone fighting for any inch of Coe's reputation (someone who has no problem at all to add a second to Amos' famous sub 1:42 from Monaco).
Wow, in 90, 93 and 97 Tanui has not done his SB (over 800m) in Rieti? What a great progress in the discussion - when Tanui hasn't raced over 800m in Rieti in these years. You are so right: while not racing some distance in Rieti, it's very difficult to get a SB.
I was indeed wrong: Tanui has raced 10 times in Rieti and on 8 of these 10 occasions a SB was the result:
in 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 96, 98, 00
not in 95, 97
Nobody has said that Tanui has ran all his best (better: fastest) races in Rieti - but MANY.
"only" 2 of his fastest 10 times achieved over 800m occurred in Rieti?
What a stretching of some easy statistics. His two fastest times are from Rieti and also his next fastest time, so "only" 2 out of ten...
This is someone "arguing" who just don't WANT to accept reality.
No, you are still posting inaccuracies! Tanui did not run season best times in Rieti in 90 or 93! I’ve already stated that and where they were set!
Please get your facts right if you want to make a serious argument.
Jesus, please help.
He did run SB in these years. And that you don't get it just reflects the level of this discussion about those points with you. Have you even read the post you are answering to?
But a discussion with someone who don't want to understand is sure to fail.
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