Two More Kenyans Provisionally Suspended For Doping Violations

Two of the biggest factors in running fast times is incentive (money) and rivalry. When money dried up on the track, the talented athletes skip the track completely and went straight to the roads.

Let's Think This One Through wrote:

Why is it that the WRs in the 15, 3, 5 & 10 were all set in that time period and have not been broken since?

You replied and quoted another post, but it doesn't matter because your reply fails no matter what. I was replying to your post, and you keep saying things like "it's quite plausible to believe", and my response is that I'm not interested in your religion. If you are unable to provide an external authoritative source, I think it is safe to assume you are not explaining intelligence based testing correctly.

rekrunner wrote:

When money dried up on the track, the talented athletes skip the track completely and went straight to the roads.

And, coincidentally, there is less drug testing on the roads.

Sounds like another way of saying "could have been".

Less testing means less knowledge.

She was only 31 no reason she should be slowing down. 5 years ago there was virtually no out of season testing of Kenyans.

Even if you were right it proves EPO works unless it only works if you're over 30!

She's run 66:18 half marathon as well so was definitely elite.

To dope or not to dope wrote:

EPO aside, money has shifted to the roads.

I remember some LRC article a couple of years ago showing the prize money for the top places in a Diamond League 5,000 m and I was shocked at how small it was. Even for the winner!

Obviously, well-established runners like Farah, Kszczot, Kendricks, Muir, Hassan, etc., have nothing to worry about because they have great sponsorship deals but if I was a young runner having to bust a nut to try and consistently place top-3 in the Diamond League against enormous competition or hopping from road race to road race in the US, Asia or Europe, where you can earn a living racing two 62-64 half-marathons a month, I might opt for the second option if I was talented, but not 60 HM or 13:00 5K-talented.

Mo has to worry. He is broke, basically has to resort to selling cleaning products.

Testing is way behind on roads compared to track. Notice how the Kenyans have slowed on the track. Ethiopia are now top on the track because their testing is where Kenya's was 10 years ago.

rekrunner wrote:

Two of the biggest factors in running fast times is incentive (money) and rivalry.

When money dried up on the track, the talented athletes skip the track completely and went straight to the roads.

Let's Think This One Through wrote:

Why is it that the WRs in the 15, 3, 5 & 10 were all set in that time period and have not been broken since?

Hmmm. Are you really saying that there are guys in the marathon right now who could have broken Bekele's WRs or Komen's 7:20? Kipchoge? Or maybe you mean Kiptum?

It is not debatable that her PBs come from 2010-2015 and her provisional doping suspension is now, 4 years after these personal bests. It's hard for me to understand "no reason she should be slowing down", against the reality that she did slow down. Even harder to understand how running slower in the last 4 years, and then getting busted in 2019, proves "EPO works".

ukathleticscoach wrote:

She was only 31 no reason she should be slowing down. 5 years ago there was virtually no out of season testing of Kenyans.

Even if you were right it proves EPO works unless it only works if you're over 30!

She's run 66:18 half marathon as well so was definitely elite.

No, I'm not "really saying ... marathon". I really said "roads". Certainly, with more financial incentive, and more opportunities, there would have been more attempts, and a Gebremeskel, Gebrhiwet, Kejelcha, or Barega could have challenged Bekele's records. The 3000m isn't run as often, but again, with the right financial incentives, and a rivalry that rivals Komen and Gebrselassie's, I'm sure some Kenyans would have challenged 7:20.

Coevett wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Two of the biggest factors in running fast times is incentive (money) and rivalry.

When money dried up on the track, the talented athletes skip the track completely and went straight to the roads.

Hmmm. Are you really saying that there are guys in the marathon right now who could have broken Bekele's WRs or Komen's 7:20? Kipchoge? Or maybe you mean Kiptum?

Here is how I understand this "testing" argument. Testing provides data and knowledge. Conversely, a lack of testing implies a lack of data and knowledge, or, in the best sense of the word, ignorance. Arguments based on lack of testing are effectively arguments based on ignorance. Recall that Kenyans and Ethiopians started dominating in World Cross Country in the 1980s, when all countries were not being tested. Recall that Kenya and Ethiopia were dominating on the track in the 1990s, when no test existed for EPO, and there was still no WADA. Recall Kenya and Ethiopia still dominated in the 2000s, before the ABP in 2009, when virtually all countries were not OOC blood tested.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Testing is way behind on roads compared to track. Notice how the Kenyans have slowed on the track. Ethiopia are now top on the track because their testing is where Kenya's was 10 years ago.

LoneStarXC wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

When money dried up on the track, the talented athletes skip the track completely and went straight to the roads.

And, coincidentally, there is less drug testing on the roads.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9420989

Has this ever been determined to be true,that the athletic feats follow on from the money .

Another take on it is that the money follows on from the athletes and the doping.

East Africans are introduced to Epo,start breaking records on track and the money flows in.

Drug testing improves around 2000 and the athletes and the dope move to the road and start breaking records and the money follows again.

Happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken

But watching Mo clean up his bathroom & kitchen is just hilarious.

rekrunner wrote:

No, I'm not "really saying ... marathon". I really said "roads".

Certainly, with more financial incentive, and more opportunities, there would have been more attempts, and a Gebremeskel, Gebrhiwet, Kejelcha, or Barega could have challenged Bekele's records.

The 3000m isn't run as often, but again, with the right financial incentives, and a rivalry that rivals Komen and Gebrselassie's, I'm sure some Kenyans would have challenged 7:20.

Coevett wrote:

Hmmm. Are you really saying that there are guys in the marathon right now who could have broken Bekele's WRs or Komen's 7:20? Kipchoge? Or maybe you mean Kiptum?

Two problems with this, but again you are writing hypothetically and making alternative theories. Yet you criticise everyone else for this. Last year's Brussels Diamond League 5,000m final was vastly superior conditions and pacing to the day Bekele set the 5,000m WR, heck Kejelcha did all the pacing and Berega did a slingshot off of him. Bekele had to run the last 2kms under 5 minutes.

Extremely fast runners like El Guerrouj, Ali Saïdi-Sief, Bekele, Morceli, Lahlafi, Mourhit and Kejelcha haven't come close to Komen's 7:20, because it is a super invincible WR. 7.5 laps @ 58.66 that is unreal.

The simplest conclusion is that most good runners, whatever the country, whatever the time period, are dirty.

There used to be a view that East Africans were clean and everyone else was dirty. That has proven to be wrong.

Some on these boards want to think that East Africans are dirty and everyone else is clean. Not sure why that would be true.

What makes sense is that everyone is dirty.

We all know this is true in cycling. No one seriously thinks that American cyclists are any more/less clean than English cyclists or Italian or Eritrean cyclists. Everyone (who wins) is dirty.

I have no confidence in any one any more.

Bannisterwasclean wrote:

The simplest conclusion is that most good runners, whatever the country, whatever the time period, are dirty.

There used to be a view that East Africans were clean and everyone else was dirty. That has proven to be wrong.

Some on these boards want to think that East Africans are dirty and everyone else is clean. Not sure why that would be true.

What makes sense is that everyone is dirty.

We all know this is true in cycling. No one seriously thinks that American cyclists are any more/less clean than English cyclists or Italian or Eritrean cyclists. Everyone (who wins) is dirty.

I have no confidence in any one any more.

Many people here still believe that East Africans are clean and everybody else is dirty.

That's not much more crazy than believing that everybody is as dirty as everybody else.

East Africa - minimal or non-existant testing standards, easy availability of EPO, huge financial incentives to cheat, corrupt culture, and frequent busts.

West - much better testing, difficult to obtain illegal peds without being tracked, less financial incentive to cheat, less corrupt culture, few busts.

Isn't believing something ever more fanatically, despite the ever greater evidence contradicting your belief, the very definition of insanity?

Not to mention the evidence that African times went up and down in parallel with the availability of peds and testing standards, whereas the rest of the world (excluding dirty triangle countries such as Spain) largely didn't or even went the other way as the 'you have to dope to compete' situation caused a decline in participation in the West.

Really strong points. Hadn’t thought about the corrupt cultures in non-Western countries. I propose we just categorize countries by your views of culture and only allow people from the good countries to compete. If we had done that in cycling, Lance would have been on top for even longer as the true clean champion. And can’t believe the world let those obvious cheats Abebe Bikila and Kip Keino ever compete.

You make some excellent observations Balco. I'd never considered that Kenyans were the biggest dopers in cycling too. Then again, Chris Froome is Kenyan, and probably the only Kenyan in cycling, so that's about a 100% doping rate right there. Probably even higher than the Kenyan doping rate in middle-distance. Well, at least equal.