I challenge anyone to logically defend this action: Feds Order High School To Allow Boys Who Dress As Gir

Elyse,

I don't particularly disagree with what you are saying, but to the outside observer you come off as extremely condescending and arrogant. If your goal is to educate people and not just make them angry at you it might be worth softening your tone when addressing people with different viewpoints. There is truth behind, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

CowardswithGunsRCool wrote:

Who's the fear monger?

As much as it nauseates me to the listen to right-wing drivel, fear mongering and name calling the current situation of a separate dressing area seems completely reasonable. Arnie and his boys have over stepped their boundaries on this one......

Lost in all this is the amount of money being spent to litigate and administer these kind of fiascoes.

DiscoGary wrote:

Who is going to be the one to tell Muslims in this country that their daughters have to shower next to naked guys? Will you call them names and force them to comply if they resist?

Yeah, you liberals are going to have your hands full with that one. I can't wait.

I wasn't fear mongering. I was pointing out how the left was going to face a politically correct clash of epic proportions when they try to reconcile their forced tolerance of sexual issues with their coddling of the Muslim population.

Why aren't Muslim business owners asked about catering a gay wedding? Hmmm.

Fair, but I realize I won't sway people like DiscoGary. He is stuck in his ways (unfortunately). I realize I come across as condescending, but this topic and the amounts of misinformation/misunderstanding that comes up around it is infuriating. I have twelve year old clients attempting suicide because people like DiscoGary spead the gospel that these kids shouldn't have the same rights as other kids. It's sickening and disheartening, honestly.

Elyse wrote:

these kids shouldn't have the same rights as other kids.

I believe in marriage equality, equal pay for equal work, not being able to be fired for religious, gender or sexual orientation, but I also believe that children's changing areas should be divided based on their biological sex. If we want to have unisex bathrooms for adults that is fine but I do not think that is appropriate in a public school for children entrusted to our care.

Based on my views do you feel that I am limiting the rights of the trans community?

Elyse wrote:

Fair, but I realize I won't sway people like DiscoGary. He is stuck in his ways (unfortunately). I realize I come across as condescending, but this topic and the amounts of misinformation/misunderstanding that comes up around it is infuriating. I have twelve year old clients attempting suicide because people like DiscoGary spead the gospel that these kids shouldn't have the same rights as other kids. It's sickening and disheartening, honestly.

You have no more moves left so you play the suicide card and try to blame it all on anyone who disagrees with you. That's pathetic.

All you fathers out there hear that? If you don't let naked guys shower with your daughters then you are responsible for suicides. Did that change your mind?

No one has the right to expect the rest of the world to cater to their mental illnesses. It simply can not work. Those with mental problems need to get responsible help... which brings this back to YOU.

Has it occurred to you that your clients attempt suicide because you are incompetent? If you understand so little about the human psyche as you have demonstrated on this thread, as has been corroborated by an independent source, then I find it likely that you are equally misinformed about the psychological needs of your clients and how to guide them through a complex world which might not always conform to what they desire.

Perhaps you should consider another line of work before you end up with blood on your hands.

Yes, I do. Because you're making this about "appropriateness" around "children." Trans children (many of them feel different from as early as 3 or 4 years old) are not sexual predators, not out to make others feel uncomfortable....they are children. If other children can't handle being around transgender children, that is their problem and should not add to the onus of an already potentially debilitating struggle for a transgender child who has absolutely zero control over their bodies. Parents should be open to explaining gender identity and fluidity to their children from an early age, I believe.

There is a push to let transgender children use the bathrooms of the gender they are. It's beyond simply "identifying" (which is why DiscoGary's Presidential argument is bogus); it is deeply embodied, mapped, and can be neurologically and psychologically researched. A transgender girl is a girl; she should be free to use the girl's bathroom. That's it.

DiscoGary, you are a homophobic closet homosexual Christian bigot.

Or a troll?

Good one, DiscoGary. See, this is why I don't try to reason with folks like him. No, I have never once considered my clients' suicide attempts are because I am incompentent (which I am in fact, not). I have, however, considered that my client's suicide attempts come as a result of physical violence at school (beat up for using the "wrong" bathroom), abadonment of parents (parents willingly put child in foster care after she came out as trans), and sexual assault on the playground. These are real reasons that my clients have attempted suicide, communicated to me by my clients themselves, corroborated by guidance counselors, classmates, friends, and--in the case of the sexual assault case--a lawyer.

I am not pulling a "suicide" card (you righties are so fond of accusing us of pulling cards whenver you disagree with us!); I am, however, being honest about my experiences and why I find your posts so stomach-churning and revolting.

I completely understand everything you're saying. I have a psych degree and understand this stuff. I'm not saying that the "added layer of confusion" applies to me. It doesn't. My point is that using a term like cisgender is completely unnecessary since you are not in one of the classifications that requires further distinction. It is also a term that just makes you feel important. The general public does not care about terms such as cisgender, which makes it a pointless term to use.

You keep saying that things confuse me, but they don't. You're misunderstanding my point and I can tell this is a pointless argument already seeing as how you've missed the vast majority of what I wrote, so I'm out. Enjoy this one.

Elyse wrote:

If other children can't handle being around transgender children, that is their problem and should not add to the onus of an already potentially debilitating struggle for a transgender child who has absolutely zero control over their bodies.

Seems to me a transgender kid is going to feel a level of discomfort either way. A biological girl who identifies as male, or vice versa, is going to feel different in either the boy's or girl's locker room, bathroom, shower, etc. No? Fact is, they are different. That issue is not going to go away once they're able to use whichever bathroom they want.

Elyse wrote:

A transgender girl is a girl; she should be free to use the girl's bathroom. That's it.

But that is not "it", physically they are still male and as a society we have decided that our school's locker rooms are divided by a person's physical characteristics.

I am not claiming that trans-children are sexual predators, quite the opposite, but you must understand why many parents do not want their teenage child changing and showering with people that physically have the characteristics of the other sex.

Wait! You just said that your clients attempt suicide because of people like me. I never beat up someone because of gender, I never abandoned a kid, and never sexually assaulted anyone. So now you are admitting that I don't have anything to do with your client's suicide attempts.

I just keep saying we can't have naked guys in girl's showers.

You DID play the suicide card, in an attempt to paint me as some kind of heartless monster (the normal, lazy liberal approach to a debate), and then immediately undermined your own slander by stating the "real" causes for suicide which have nothing to do with me. Again, showing that your powers of concentration and discernment are too weak to be trusted to guide those with serious problems.

I have sympathy for everyone involved, those with mental illness, others in the locker room, and the parents who have to help sort this out. You only have sympathy for one of those groups and you are willing to demonize everyone else in order to force them to conform to the expectations of the mentally ill. Your way can not work.

Tomorrow, some smart-ass guy in district 211 is going to "identify" as a girl and demand to be let into the girl's locker room. The Federal Government has said he can go in, so no one can stop him. How do you deal with that? You don't know how and you don't care, because you don't have any sympathy for anyone other than your narrow cause.

Well a society can not run for the benefit of one tiny group at the expense of all the others. It can not, and will not work.

You need to change your approach to this. The rest of the world is going to kick your ass just like I did here. Your clients deserve a better advocate than you.

Elyse wrote:

Fair, but I realize I won't sway people like DiscoGary. He is stuck in his ways (unfortunately). I realize I come across as condescending, but this topic and the amounts of misinformation/misunderstanding that comes up around it is infuriating. I have twelve year old clients attempting suicide because people like DiscoGary spead the gospel that these kids shouldn't have the same rights as other kids. It's sickening and disheartening, honestly.

I have enjoyed about as much of your shaming as I care to stomach. In the past 6 months, my son has "identified" as an American Ninja Warrior, a Ninja Turtle, and a Tyrannosaurus Rex. One small part of job as a parent is to help him learn to make smart decisions and help him find his "identity". If he wants to play on the monkey bars or learn karate, I may guide him along those paths. If, however, he were to try to bite one of his friends (because he identifies as a carnivorous dinosaur), I will CORRECT that behavior.

For you to make the claim that how a child "identifies" him/herself at a kindergarten-ish age trumps the actual biology of that child, and that it should automatically necessitate our encouragement of that "identity", is irresponsible and nonsensical.

You mention bullying. Did it occur to you that if people like yourself weren't constant whispering in their ear that it is perfectly normal for boys with a penis to actually be female, that they might have grown out of that phase WAY before it manifested itself with physical abuse?

People like you are what is wrong with our current society. Screw honey and vinegar. You should be ashamed of yourself and the damage that you and your ilk are doing to a generation of Americans.

I ID'd myself as cisgender so it would be clear that I don't have a personal stake in being transgender. That's all. Not to sound smart, not to go over your heads...again, ask any teenager in a solid intro to sexuality class and they'd be able to define cisgender as well.

For everyone's sake, I sincerely hope none of your (any of your) children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, cousins, neighbors, kids' classmates, etc. ever come out as transgender.

PS: The term "identity" such as in gender identity is different from identifying as a Ninja Warrior. Alas, moot point.

Ah, LetsRun. Good talk.

And DiscoGary...the only thing I will change about my approach in the future is not to engage with trolls like you, who think giving me professional advice/attacking my character will make me seriously re-evaluate. You're a clown. Have a nice life.

Nor is it anymore the 1850s, 1750s, 1650s, 1550s, 1450s,.... You think that the overwhelming majority of mankind, in every place, time and condition, was a horde of benighted bigots and thankfully people who believe as you believe set things, ahem, straight.

Elyse wrote:

I ID'd myself as cisgender so it would be clear that I don't have a personal stake in being transgender. That's all. Not to sound smart, not to go over your heads...again, ask any teenager in a solid intro to sexuality class and they'd be able to define cisgender as well.

For everyone's sake, I sincerely hope none of your (any of your) children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, cousins, neighbors, kids' classmates, etc. ever come out as transgender.

PS: The term "identity" such as in gender identity is different from identifying as a Ninja Warrior. Alas, moot point.

Ah, LetsRun. Good talk.

You responded to exactly zero of my points (except the vague notion that I do not understand "identity" without explaining what you meant...did it occur to you that if we are the neanderthals that you take us to be, you shouldn't assume that we know what all these big, scary words mean?)

I hope you take my charge, that you are doing these children more harm than good, seriously. I am sure that if I told my son enough times that it is perfectly acceptable for him to consider himself female, that I could convert him to transgender, eventually. You call this "therapy"; I call it damaging (and potentially criminal).

I am transgender and in an ideal world I would like to be able to use whatever restroom I want, but I also understand that there are social norms in place so I use the restroom of my outer appearance. With that being said I would prefer to use a gender neutral bathroom in public but that is not always possible.

Also when I was in high school I changed in a separate restroom and no one cared. I did not want my classmates to feel uncomfortable so I did not force the issue. Honestly I would not want to change in either locker room.

Please don't claim to talk for the entire trans community because there are many of us that just want to live our lives in peace and not force other people to do everything to cater to us.

Bravo. Thank you.

Dont Speak For Me wrote:

I am transgender and in an ideal world I would like to be able to use whatever restroom I want, but I also understand that there are social norms in place so I use the restroom of my outer appearance. With that being said I would prefer to use a gender neutral bathroom in public but that is not always possible.

Also when I was in high school I changed in a separate restroom and no one cared. I did not want my classmates to feel uncomfortable so I did not force the issue. Honestly I would not want to change in either locker room.

Please don't claim to talk for the entire trans community because there are many of us that just want to live our lives in peace and not force other people to do everything to cater to us.