Deanouk wrote:LOL. It was not the "ONLY detailed contemporary account" as other posters, including myself, told you time and time again
no
this was contemporary account
NOT book written decades later
what have book sources given for 800 time & last 300 ?
Other accounts gave 49.7, 50.2 and the one that I proposed was probably the most accurate at 50.6
no
you hadn't a clue what was best estimate as you have not seen vid either
only an inadequate thinker settles on lowest of range without thought
You dismissed ALL of the above and stubbornly refused to even consider anything apart from a "reputable German broadsheet's" claim it was 49.4. You were WRONG!
Well, that account was out by over a second, and you had the audacity to call people idiots who were pretty much on the mark with 50.6
get a clue
no one offered a vid analysis
a contemporary, local broadsheet account is best 1st source
You were woefully wrong, despite repeated claims by yourself that you knew what you were talking about
you are posting drivel
the contemporary, local broadsheet was wrong for 400 but not much for 300 at 36.4
i wasn't the "contemporary, local broadsheet"
Clearly you didn't, yet now you want everyone to listen to you again and believe what you say is accurate! That's a bold claim
more rubbish
read above
i posted a contemporary, local, detailed broadsheet account
NOT my account
Are these "other accounts" the same German ones that were completely WRONG about his last lap time?
no
that with 400 to go, Tummler took off and Norpoth did everything he could to impede Ryun. Ryun went wide around Norpoth and chased after Tummler, catching him with 300 to go. At this point, reported: "For a split second, they were even but then Jim accelerated like nothing I have ever seen. It made his 3:33.1 look like just another run. Suddenly the packed stadium developed lockjaw. They were stunned and speechless. I never expect to see anything quite like it again. Many times were offered for Jim over his last 300, and 200, but I timed him and feel that 36.4, and 24.8 seem reasonable. It was worth coming to Europe.
You chose to dismiss the time of 50.6 given by others, and yet you are now using their words as facts?
learn
contemporary broadsheet account
Which account of the race are you now referring to?
You clearly haven't seen the race, and yet you have the blind faith to claim any comment about the race as a fact, without considering any exaggeration being added
clueless
i didn't start this thread without knowing about him since late '60s years ago
i thought keino was talking nonsense when he said ( to my source ) he never wanted to run ever against '67 ryun when i was young then, but this race description shows it
He ran a 60.0 followed by a 50.5. By said88's account he was flat out all the way for the last 300m. You pre-suppose that all other athletes you compare him to were also flat out for the duration of the last 300m. That is something you cannot claim categorically. Many of these races come down to a last 100m effort
utter drivel
this shows you have no clue about track
he ran 36.5 on a chewed-up dirt track in a 3'38.2
where on earth have you ever found a 36.5 finish in a 3'38 race to even contemplate if they weren't flat-out in last 300 ???
who the hell has ever run sub-36.5 in a sub-3'38.2 ???
Had Ryun made a 'hard effort' earlier in the race, e.g. on the 3rd lap, then he wouldn't have finished as fast in the last 300m.
Losing 'time...in unenforced slow lap' is irrelevant as the same claim can apply to other athletes in other comparable races
name them
fast 1st laps enforce a slow 2nd lap
slow 1st laps enforce nothing but guarantee a slow overall time
show me a 3'30 off a 57 or 58
where is it ?
If Ryun had run a 1:48 last 800 in a 3:36. his last 300 would have been 38 something. You make a huge leap of faith to say it is worth a 1:46 finish in a 3:34. There is no proof at all that this was the case
you really are clueless
3'36/1'48 is just bare physics conversion
learn something for tenth time
it's not generous, as canova stated bloody obvious that slow laps can't be recovered - mo's 26'46 was more like 5 or 6s faster than his physics-flattened out time
~ 26'35
as for ryun
what on earth do you think his "bare physics"
3'36+/1'48+
converts to on a chewed up dirt track at lot more than 1s/lap
try 1.5s/lap
here it is
3'32.5+/1'45.5+
Absolute nonsense
what part of ~
http://kuhistory.com/articles/ryuns-run/you not comprehend about deluged, conveyor belt track for lj, 46.9 for 440y relay after a 3'55.8 ???
A 36.6 300 finish at the end of a 3:38 tells us little about his 400 open ability
no
you know nothing
komen even in 7'20 coudn't run faster than low-50 & he was good for 3'30-flat
learn :
he ran a flat-out 1'47.3 just 1/52 before 7'20
endurance doesn't help here - you need incredible speed
i ask you again
how many guys have finished a 3'38 race in 36.5 ???
Gonzales finished a 1500 in 36.7
in a crap 3'45+
bring up his 3'38 on chewed up dirt
or cram's virtually same last 400 of 50-flat
it's embarassing you are even bringing up a 3'45 synthetic race
Aouita allegedly ran a last 300 in 36.1 in a 3:34. Neither of them were capable of sub 47 in an open 400m
you have no clue about this
you have no idea about aouita's 400 speed
The only evidence to support Ryun's open 400 ability are the relay legs he ran
eh ???
it's pretty damn solid evidence
A 46.9 440 leg tells us that he had 47.1- 47.3 open 400m ability at best on cinders
how many times do you have to be told & keep ignoring
http://kuhistory.com/articles/ryuns-run/In light of the previous night’s downpours and the ominous clouds that hung in the sky over Lawrence on the morning of April 23, 1966
They saw the long jumpers use a grain elevator’s conveyor belt for a runway and even got a chuckle when an Oklahoma freshman lost his shorts at the end of his leg of the 880 relay
On April 23 of that year, with his 19th birthday less than a week away and storm clouds gathered overhead, Ryun took to the rain-soaked track at Memorial Stadium and shattered the 12-year old Kansas Relays mile record by more than seven seconds. The KU prodigy admitted that the wild cheering of the unexpectedly large crowd “spurred him on” to the fifth fastest mile in American history. His time of 3:55.8 represented the best time anyone in the world had yet recorded that year.
Later that day he anchored the freshman mile relay team for KU and despite receiving the baton 20 yards behind the leaders reeled them in with a 46.9-second quarter-mile to give his team the victory
To go from that to claim he "musta had" low 45 synthetic speed is wishful thinking, and cannot be proven in any way
get a clue for tenth+ reposting
can't you do basic maths ???
46.9 for 440y
-> 46.6 for 400m
flying leg is 0.7 - 0.8 loss
-> 47.3 - 47.4
NOW subtract the bare minimum of 1s/lap as last event on track after more chewing up
-> 46.3 - 46.4
then take off at minimum another 1s/lap for sodden surface for which required a conveyor belt brought in from a farm, as it was obvious sprinting was impossible in conditions
Your whole argument hinges around the perception that every cinder track was 1 sec per lap slower. For a start that is a sweeping generalisation. Moreover, neither you, nor Ron Clarke can prove this. There are just as many experts who state it is 0.5 sec per lap
if you can get a guy who broke as many wr as ron & also had a qualified accountancy degree than offer it
low-grade tv commentators don't count
show me peter matthews statistics degree
i'll take ron
offer better...
Even if there were a shred of truth in the 1 sec conversion
get a clue
ron says it
countless guys here say it
that only brings his 400 open down to low 46. You then knock another whole second off for spurious assertions that range from it being very wet, or he was a bit tired, or he had a headache, etc
learn to read or find a brain
if it's sodden requiring a conveyor belt for lj
it means track is basically unrunnable
ryun ran 3'55.8 then 46.9 on it later
what can't your brain comprehend about this ???
None of these things can in any way be measured accurately or scientifically. You have appointed yourself as the expert and deduced it is a second
rubbish
ron said 1s/lap
find someone with more wrs + accountancy qualification
The only evidence we have of Ryun's ability at 400 are the variety of relay legs he ran
they don't give story of his 46.9
If you go to this site, where the stats were compiled by Ryun's coach, Bob Timmons, you'll see that Ryun ran 3 (three) 440 relay legs in 67.
http://rinksramblings.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/ryun-project-7.htmlThey were 47.0, 48.0 and 47.0
The fastest was 47.0 and that's worth 46.7 for a 400m relay, or c. 47.3 for an open 400m. Or were all of these on flooded cinder tracks too?
get a clue
these don't have "full story"
unlike his epic '66 relay, there is no mention of him being
"20y behind on sodden track"
he won 2 of the 3 relays, but lost the one when he ran a 880 prelim day before, then won mile, 880y then 3rd in 47.0
he wasn't running against keino or bodo
he was running against oklohoma
No will in the world is going to turn this into a 45 low on synthetic
learn to read
or does not 36.5 finish in a 3'38.2 on a chewed up track tell you something about basic speed ???
If he were a 45 low runner he would have run a lot faster than a 46.9 relay leg
how many times do you need to be told ???
46.9 on 440y, sodden dirt, requiring conveyor belt for lj
work it out again for 10th time
and that was in 66 when he ran his fastest 800m
when he ran 800wr & ill
get it into your brain
800 was poor man's event in '60s/'70s
100/400/1500/M
were top events
It is just as likely that his speed in 66 was better than it was in 67
drivel
1 never heard of a western guy who says his best speed was at 19 & not 20
and that it was his endurance which improved, to take his Mile best down from 3:51.3 TO 3:51.1.
rubbish
try again
fetch what he brought his previous 1500pb down to 3;33.1wr ???
Yet again, you take it on faith alone that he must have been faster over 400m in 67 than 66. The only evidence that is worth considering is his 400 times in both years, and the above link tells us he was no faster in 67 over that distance
drivel
what links for '66 ???
you posted nothing about '66
Coe twice ran much faster 400 relay legs on cinders, 46.3 in 79 and 46.4 in 80
not on 440y tracks let alone sodden dirt
try harder
not to mention synthetic legs of 45.5
eh ???
where is this 45.5 ?
The overwhelming evidence, backed up by an 800 best 2.6 secs faster, is that Coe was not only faster than Ryun over 400m
drivel
i don't have to mention that coe's pb is 46.8
that's stand alone rubbish
but of course he was worth 45.7 at his '81 peak
but anyone can can claim 46.8 anytime & can't be challenged
ryun was likely 45.3 in '66
i dread to think how fast in '67 when actually out of teen years
regardless of whether it was on cinders/dirt or synthetic, but that Coe is the only 1500 or Mile world record holder with the ability to run a 46 flat or faster open 400m
utter complete drivel
did nothing of
"36.5 on a chewed up dirt track in a 3'38.2"
get into your brain ???
I underestimated Morceli's closing splits
why ???
can't you analyse properly ???
His 3:34.2 finished with a 1:49.4 and 50.6, (not 1:50/51). That gives him 58.8 for 3rd lap and 50.6 for last. That's better than Ryun's 60.0, 50.5, and Morceli was running at a pace 4 secs faster overall
try again
you wasted my time already
now rework accounting for chewed-up dirt
How you can claim Ryun's was a better run is based purely on your OPINION that Ryun was slowed by 1 sec per lap on cinders. I don't buy this and many more on here don't either
ron confirmed 1s/lap
then some chump talking to roger said
"2 - 3s/lap when wet"
i'd imagine "wet" is not too far off the lower limit, but then you can offer nothing
Bile ran his last 2 laps in a 3:36.8 in 55.4 & 51.5, which again, is at least as impressive as Ryun's run. Bile may have been 1 sec slower in the last lap, but his penultimate 400 was 4.6 secs faster
no
he ran similar last 800 to '04 - 2+s slower
good but not even hicham, let alone ryun
i said abdi good for 3'27/3'28
Cacho went 58.0, 50.5 in his Olympic winning 3:40.2. So he would have been as fast over the last lap as Ryun, and 2 secs faster in the penultimate lap, albeit in a slightly slower overall time
what part of 2+s slower final time compared to chewed-up dirt your brain can't comprehend ???
LOL. The way you have knocked off 6 secs from his finishing time and 3.5 secs off his last 800m is not scientific in any way. It is purely wild speculation. And the way you can use a 36.6 all out last 300 in a 3:38 as evidence of this is nonsense
completely clueless
you have no idea at all of the sport
for chewed up dirt, apply
1.5s/lap
Morceli was a 3:44.3 Miler, Ryun was a 3:51.1 miler. These are the facts. Yes, Ryun was capable of a lot faster than his pb on a synthetic surface with decent pacing, but not 7 secs faster!!
you haven't a clue
i asked you
because you can think too hard
laban 3'29.91 v ryun on synthetic with fast pacing
give me scenario
You're right, a comparison of the two isn't close
rubbish
you can't do basic maths on subtracting ~ 1.5s/lap
ROFL.
First port of call maybe, ….. but certainly the WRONG port of call
nonsense
local contemporary broadsheet is always 1st call
That's a lesson for you to learn right there. A contemporary account from the nation in which the race took place, is NO guarantee that it will be accurate.
utter cluelessnes
to think german broadsheets woud be innacurate shows how juvenile & lacking in history you are