Sub 30 MINUTE 10k guys- your training??

His work is 60plus kms from his home. Running the last 10-12k and returning of the evening would be a possibility on Mon and Wed but would be impractical on the other evenings. Perhaps another option would be to leave the car 5km out and do a 12-15km run finishing at work then in the evening just the 5km back. That 5kms is where the car journey is slowest so this would add little time to the trip home. Would additional 5km 2d runs make much difference however.

A more cyclical approach seems to be a good idea. A period with out frequent racing may allow him to get more kms in the legs.

Any other suggestions?

looking at this guy Simon Jones webpage- it seems that he is a high 29 minute 10k runner who is extremely fortunate in that he runs full-time, is coached by his Dad and gets to go on numerous warm weather training trips throughout the year. Not many runners of this level can afford this kind of luxury. I am much more impressed by the blue collar Australian guy with a wife and family and full-time job who is trying to get down to 30:00 for 10k

why would you want to go abroad if you live in the UK? It is ideal weather for running. Mild winters and reasonable summers. Only thing I could think of is training at altitude.

Cheers,

B

bengel,

When Lydiard was advising me 8-9 years ago he had me on two hill sessions plus a time trial each week and I had a fourth day where I did some short sprints. But I was in my late 40s and was also trying not to aggravate my back and knees with fast downhill running. I'm also in a very flat area and can't be really picky with hills.

Personally, if I had a variety of hills to choose from and were doing a hill session I'd do a variation of what Anders Garderud did. I'd find a hill of about 200-300 meters, run up and then do some sprints of 100-300 meters at the bottom, maybe a half hour's worth of this. I'd concentrate on lifting my knees and driving with my ankles on the uphills.

But like everything else, you need to have a go at it and see what works for you. The thing about doing hills from a Lydiard perspective is to use them as a way of improving your stride, i.e. knee lift, ankle drive, etc. I'm advising a guy now who is starting his hill phase and we're aiming for 10-12 sessions before he moves on to anaerobic work. He has good hills to run on but if he didn't I'd have him find anything that goes up at least somewhat and work on the knee lift and drive and probably on running down "comfortably fast."

mopak,

While I'm a firm believer in the value of doing big volume I do have some questions about the limits of improving that way. One thing that I've noticed, I'm not sure how clearly this will come out, is that it seems like some people get big improvements by running big miles for a while but once they've done the big miles and have gotten the benefits they can run pretty close to their best on much lower mileage.

The best example of this I can think of is Ron Hill whose mileage after the 1974 Commonwealth Games was much lower than it had been before but who was running almost as well, allowing for age, e.g. best of 2:12 off of maybe 70 miles a week vs. 2:09 off of 120-130. Don MacGregor managed 2:17 on about 60-70 miles a week vs. 2:14 when he was up around 100, again at a more advanced age. Peter Snell told me that he thinks once you've done the big miles and get the development of your cardiovascular system that comes with it your cardio system stays developed for a very long time even with very reduced mileage.

Applying this to your guy, I recall that he did have a stretch of time where he was doing around 100 miles a week. It could be that he got nearly all of the benefits from big miles he could then and perhaps another stretch of somewhat higher mileage won't do all that much for him. Or maybe he'd have to to jack the miles up quite a lot, far beyond what he could reasonably fit into his life, to benefit.

On the other hand, it seems as if he doesn't have an extensive history of high miles so maybe there is still some room for improvement. Really, the only way to tell is to try it, but I'd be careful to make sure it's something he really wants to try knowing there are no guarantees.

This really is a great thread.

typical week in season: 85-100miles.

Easy days at around 7min/mile pace

2 workouts a week:

1."Threshold"/Tempo run of 5-8 miles at 5:20 down to 5:00min pace. OR some short Tempo effort like 3-4 by 3200m or 20min hard tempo at 5:00 to 4:50 pace.

2. "Vo2 max stimulus" : 8-10 by 1000m @2:58-2:55 w/1:30 rest

or 5 by 1600m at 4:45 w/2min rest.

also maybe every other week a faster workout to turn the legs over: 20 by 400m in 68 ave. w/1:15 jog rest

and a long run of up to 2 hours steady.

my running website with a lot more training info:

http://www.geocities.com/sagecanaday/

sub 30 minute guys,

what does your base training look like?

Last summer I put in a "base period"

where I averaged just over 100mpw for 16 weeks in a row.

I had a high of 130.

Most weeks were somewhat like this:

Sun: Easy Recovery run 8-10 miles at 7min pace or slower

Mon: Easy double...14-16 miles total for the day

Tues: "Tempo" 7-8 miles at 5:20 pace (strides before and

after)

Wed: Easy run at 7min pace. Double.

Thurs: "Economy Workout" 20 by 400m at 68 ave. w/1:30 recovery just for turnover...closed last one in 60-63 most times.

Fri: Easy run

Saturday: Long run 15-18 miles steady and usually hilly.

I believe in a 12 day cycle although since the calendar works off of weeks I usually do whats listed above...but maybe the next week I'd do a shorter Tempo workout at a velocity closer to the LT...something like 2 by 5k in 16:00 to 15:45 each with a 3min rest between. or 2000m repeats at current estimated 10k pace + 5-10sec a mile are good.

Also some days I'd do hill sprints (ala Renato Canova) something like 2 sets of 2 by 10sec all-out up a steep hill with full recovery between reps and a mile jog between sets.

I believe that "base phase" can even include light "pre-V02max workouts" such as 1600m repeats...but they need to be kept under control (usually the high mileage makes your legs feel like rubber anyway). I also believe that you should touch on your speed (ala Coe and Benson) at all phases of training during the year...hence race-pace 200s and 400s plus the hill sprints and strides to keep the legs moving...improves your economy.

I've outlined a more complete program and my training manifesto "philosophy" on my website under the "training" section. Just my 2 cents, take anyone's advice with a grain of salt though because we are all individuals who respond to training in somewhat different ways. Good luck.

http://www.geocities.com/sagecanaday/

Thats not that suprising!! I know lots of guys, myself included who were only able to run once a day about 60 mpw and went sub 30. Why is William Struyven so unusual, I thought thats generally how its done. Are you saying that because he has so little speed?

Having done it for the first time last week I can honestly say that there is nothing complicated about training for a good 10k. 1. Get yourself as aerobically fit as you can while 2. maintaining good leg speed and then 3. do some work to prepare specifically for the race pace you plan to run before 4. tapering and racing smart.

The bit that always went wrong for me in the past was 1. I just didnt put in enough work to get aerobically fit. Sure I could rip out some great interval sessions on the track but take out the recoveries and I couldn't hold it together in the race. Now I'm a marathoner i'm just much fitter and able to run faster at 10k.

I've posted the sharpening up phase including lactate test data at

http://adrianmarriott.blogspot.com/

Adrian

Adrian what is your maximal heart rate: running 5'20" miles at 160 heart rate is great.

Was at 192 as I crossed the finish line in that 10,000m and last season I finished a 3000m at 194 which I'm guessing is pretty much my limit.

I find that HR varies a bit from day to day depending on conditions/fatigue level etc so for me its not a particularly reliable measure for daily training.

Great Thread!

how old are you with a max of 195 ?

Hi

Just to let you know the sad news that Tom O'Mahoney whom you mentioned passed away 15 January 2009 aged 91 years.

the approaches described here are good.

what helped me was to have a 3 week on / 1 week off schedule. about a month before setting a PR the 3 weeks would be really intense, usually 85 - 100 miles with three workouts:

15 km tempo run starting at 3:25 ish - ending at 3:08/ km

10 x 1km 3:03 - 2:55 with 200m jog in 45 sec, or 300 m jog in 1 min

alternatively:

5 x 2k in 6:10 - 5:55ish, with 400 jog in 90 sec.

15x 500 m (85 sec) with 200 jog in 40 sec.

or:

15x 400m (70 - 66) same rec as above.

all my intervals were very fartlek style. My coach had me decrease my rest before increase speed, but also made sure I would "jog". I never stood around as a recovery.

added 10-12 mile runs starting at 6:15 going down to 5:45. and a 15 miler at easy pace. strides, core

on my off week I usually did around 60 miles, only one tempo and a few 200's thrown in. runs were at slower pace

leading to the last month I would typically do the same, but have longer rests in between intervals. So basically all I did was decrease rest between in order to become more fit.

hope that helps

dontmissthepoint wrote:

U.N.O. wrote:

I recommend to read what John Kellogg has wroten to letsrun if you want to know how you will reach your limits.

I am no grammar expert, but "wroten" come one?!?!

Amy more info on John Kellogg?

I am not a grammar expert, but "Amy" come one?!?!

SUCKER.

bump

training brain wrote:

apply same approach for sub 30min

http://www.time-to-run.com/training/10k/

Looks like a solid 10k program, any success stories with this approach?

(I know... it's an old thread but for a change it's related to running)