The idea of "junk miles" is one of the worst to afflict western running.
The idea of "junk miles" is one of the worst to afflict western running.
Didn't Benji Durden go Long on his distance days if I recall. No marathon paced training; just steady distance, perhaps something like 3 hours AM / 30 minutes PM?
corrales wrote:
Didn't Benji Durden go Long on his distance days if I recall. No marathon paced training; just steady distance, perhaps something like 3 hours AM / 30 minutes PM?
as best i recall from another thread (the search feature would be intelligent here; bemoan my lack of that quality), durden did hard/easy days of something like 30+ miles one day, 30-45 minutes jog the next day. he didn't do marathon-paced work, thinking that it was too fast (for the amount of DAILY mileage he wanted to get in, i suppose). he did do 800 repeats at 10k pace (i'm pretty sure), and raced a 10k-10miler on the weekends. maybe those weren't at 100%, but he surely didn't jog them. his mileage was probably around 100mpw. i recall reading him comment that "high" weekly mileage (probably 130+ ???) didn't work for him, and that he felt better off of this high DAILY mileage work with the 10k and 10-20mile race-pace long efforts (i.e., tempos so-named by some).
i think that durden was coming pretty close to hitting the nail on the head, at least for marathon training. though, personally, i would include race-pace work. probably something like an hour in the morning doing "workouts" and 15miles-2 hours in the afternoon doing a progression ("however i'm feeling today") run, closing the last few miles. then 30 minutes in the pool on the off-day to chill and stretch the legs a bit.
this is the "neither" answer, then:
in that kind of set-up, you don't have a true "Long Run" ... i.e., you never have a run over 15-18 miles, but you're certainly feeling it on those progression runs (before i got injured, 13 in the am, 13 in the pm was doing me wonders, so i speak from some kind of experiential knowledge).
nor are you doing "high mileage," as most people define it, which is based off a weekly figure.
what you are doing is a series of three workouts (m, w, f, say) in the am that ratchet your speed (say, 8 miles at 20mile race pace; 12 miles at marathon race pace; mile repeats at 10 mile race pace) ... and "distance" adaptive progression runs (i.e., you pick up the pace as you go, and as you feel capable) in the pm.
so there's my contribution. which is really pretty-much durden's contribution to the "high mileage or long run" debate. don't do high mileage. don't do the long run. focus on the specific adaptive needs, and come up with a better answer. ;)
This is actually a good thread... for once.
Please continue, boys...
My US$0.02
My own experience of trying 2hrs/1hr MP/8x1k every week resulted in a 2:45 marathon. I read Pfitzinger's book, followed the program as folows:
1. The "long run" was at 85% of MP.
2. The "Medium Long runs" (80-100 minutes) were @ 90% of MP sometimes faster.
3. *Slower* Lactate threshold/Tempo runs resulted in better follow-on workouts. when they were too fast, I felt fine, but subsequent workouts were not easy.
I ran 2:35 on April 29th, so the changes were effective.
The 90% of MP runs were key. 80-100 minutes a "decent" clip where you have to concentrate, but finished feeling "good". Canova and many others have made this same claim. My volume of intense (~110-90% of MP) running increased, but extreme fatigue was much *less* of a factor than before, becuase workbouts were shorter and more frequent.
Lydiard etc have all also emphasized "Train don't Strain" - this is (I believe) Malmo's point too.
The 28 milers he did w/ Hudson @ 5:30 pace - those required recovery and were not a weekly occurence. They were for a very specific goal.
runningart2004/Alan might claim that the neuromuscular benefits of the long run are a benefit. Malmo stated that when he started doing leg presses 2x week, the effects were very noticeable. Can you susbsitute leg weights for the long run when trying to acheieve neuromuscular adaptation? Thoughts?
BTW I was in Malmo 2 weeks ago, oddly enough.
Bump! Continue this discussion please.
I have this thread bookmarked and have linked to it several times in reply to poster's questions about training. A good thread that impacted how I train.
So whats the veredict, very high mileage or high mileage with long runs?
LongRunGuy wrote:
So whats the veredict, very high mileage or high mileage with long runs?
Doesn't matter. Running a lot is the important thing.
Canova would answer "very high mileage with long runs".
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