I agree 100% with everything you said. Which brings up an interesting side point, to me. This is why I think Jakob is way better 3k/5k and possibly 10k runner, because he does so damn well in tactical 5000's but not as well in tactical 1500's. As a fan I wish he would just move up and be on his way.
What has he ever run that makes you think he could be just as good at 10000m? He finished 12th in a U20 World XC race and his wins in European XC were against B level fields. On the roads, he’s managed a 27:54 10K.
I'd argue based on his training alone and success in the 5000 on the world stage, he'd be able to handle the 10k just as well. His training is basically set up for 5k/10k. I don't give a crap about his previous times in those events, especially a road 10k how many years ago. He's never even run a track 10,000. You're not just world class in the 5000 and suddenly suck at the 10,000. That's not how it works - especially the way he trains.
I'd argue based on his training alone and success in the 5000 on the world stage, he'd be able to handle the 10k just as well. His training is basically set up for 5k/10k. I don't give a crap about his previous times in those events, especially a road 10k how many years ago. He's never even run a track 10,000. You're not just world class in the 5000 and suddenly suck at the 10,000. That's not how it works - especially the way he trains.
It’s a great, unanswered Q. Obviously it feels like a 26:45 type time is a given. And it feels a championship 10K is a decent setup for him as it often goes slow the first 7K. But what about running a 26:15-26:35? He hasn’t gone out of his comfort zone, so we don’t really know.
What has he ever run that makes you think he could be just as good at 10000m? He finished 12th in a U20 World XC race and his wins in European XC were against B level fields. On the roads, he’s managed a 27:54 10K.
I'd argue based on his training alone and success in the 5000 on the world stage, he'd be able to handle the 10k just as well. His training is basically set up for 5k/10k. I don't give a crap about his previous times in those events, especially a road 10k how many years ago. He's never even run a track 10,000. You're not just world class in the 5000 and suddenly suck at the 10,000. That's not how it works - especially the way he trains.
No, a 1500/5000m guy is going to slow down faster from 5000 to 10000m than a 5/10 guy. World class 10000m runners don’t run 3:27s and if they could, the very best could run sub-12:30 for 5000m.
The thread topic ignores the elephant in the room. Quite apart from issues of speed, how much more drugs will Jakob need to beat a doped world record - because there's no way he takes it without them.
You don't know if the record is doped.
For sure it's possible to beat a doped record clean.
The thread topic ignores the elephant in the room. Quite apart from issues of speed, how much more drugs will Jakob need to beat a doped world record - because there's no way he takes it without them.
For you, there’s an elephant in every room so Jakob’s is pretty easy to ignore.
If the room is professional sport - yes, there is an elephant called doping.
You firstly have to assume that a "clean" runner (El G) is able to set a world record by running faster than any doped runner (who had access to EPO, for which there was then no effective test) in his era or in the 25 years since. So the record has to be doped.
Secondly, you must conclude that doping has no significant effect if a clean runner is able to run faster than the best doped runners, some of whom will be the most talented in their era.
You have done no research on the subject but merely express wishful thinking.
Too focused on the 5000: Has only run 4 5000’s the last 3 years. His age may be catching up with his logical decline.
Jakob ran close to Cram’s mile PB and kept on going for another lap. Probably could have gone faster if he had a better peak going into worlds. Not sure why he thinks Jakob needs more speed. He is only a few tenths of a second per lap off of the 1500, and even less for the mile.
You are only focusing on times. Jakob has been outkicked the last two major championships by runners with more speed. In a major championships with no pacemakers it's very difficult to run away from an entire field. If Kerr and/or Wightman are with Jakob with 200 to go he's very likely going to lose.
Jakob's hope for the record under present training may just be that he continues to knock down his threshold pace a bit each year, and hence, the pace of all of his training, based as it is on threshold (with measurements after nearly every interval to check). He was actually doing some workouts last year that were getting him closer to El G shape before the 2M WR. I'm thinking specifically of the 800s in sub-1:50. 6x800, 2:00, 2:00; 1:55, 1:55; 1:49, 1:49. Now that is the kind of training that will get him closer to 3:26, because he has to average 54.8 (1:49.6) to tie it. That's also getting him more used to sub-55s. He said that he was not capped on those 1:49s either. So, if we are seeing 1:48s on those with the same lactate readings, he'll be ready for the record. That still might not be enough to win championship 1500s because it doesn't require the gear-shifting he needs for that, but it gives him a better chance at gapping the field before the final 200m.
Jakob ran close to Cram’s mile PB and kept on going for another lap. Probably could have gone faster if he had a better peak going into worlds. Not sure why he thinks Jakob needs more speed. He is only a few tenths of a second per lap off of the 1500, and even less for the mile.
You are only focusing on times. Jakob has been outkicked the last two major championships by runners with more speed. In a major championships with no pacemakers it's very difficult to run away from an entire field. If Kerr and/or Wightman are with Jakob with 200 to go he's very likely going to lose.
And you are only focusing on one of many posts I have made on this thread
I'd argue based on his training alone and success in the 5000 on the world stage, he'd be able to handle the 10k just as well. His training is basically set up for 5k/10k. I don't give a crap about his previous times in those events, especially a road 10k how many years ago. He's never even run a track 10,000. You're not just world class in the 5000 and suddenly suck at the 10,000. That's not how it works - especially the way he trains.
No, a 1500/5000m guy is going to slow down faster from 5000 to 10000m than a 5/10 guy. World class 10000m runners don’t run 3:27s and if they could, the very best could run sub-12:30 for 5000m.
No, I agree with brunner. Who said he's a 1500/5000 guy?? I think you are missing the point and how great Jakob is. He just happens to a really fast 5k/10k guy - that's the POINT!
I'd argue based on his training alone and success in the 5000 on the world stage, he'd be able to handle the 10k just as well. His training is basically set up for 5k/10k. I don't give a crap about his previous times in those events, especially a road 10k how many years ago. He's never even run a track 10,000. You're not just world class in the 5000 and suddenly suck at the 10,000. That's not how it works - especially the way he trains.
No, a 1500/5000m guy is going to slow down faster from 5000 to 10000m than a 5/10 guy. World class 10000m runners don’t run 3:27s and if they could, the very best could run sub-12:30 for 5000m.
Just one more thing to think about - just another viewpoint, Jakob's training is more or less like a 5k/10k guy and despite that he still can run 3:27. I think you should consider it the other way you say, if a guy training for more LT/aerobic based performances can still run a 3:27 that is great to me. And can only help him in the 5k/10k races. Ok I will stop.
Yeah I have to agree - when it's a post basically slamming 3 of the greatest MD runners in history it seems bizarre and what's the impetus for it, because Cram said he felt Jakob needed to be faster over the 800 to get the 1500 record? (I know he said mile too, but I think a lot of people who do follow the sport closely and have great knowledge of the sport would respectfully disagree with him).
And anyway, Crams narrative isn't wrong - I can say with some level of confidence that if Jakob was capable of being within half a second of Crammy over 2 laps (not even a race - just a two lap time trial), then he would have the 1500m WR already.
I’m perfectly fine with your answer / post here, and I get why you got the impression you got after reading my post. So let me elaborate a little:
1. I like that Cram persistently argue the way he does over years. (The more people argue the clearer their reasoning). But I also feel a right to point out that he seems a little bias (which is of course very understandable and natural) on behalf on himself and the 8/1500m approach (vs the 15/5000m approach). And I think it’s a little curious that Cram doesn’t acknowledge the immense progression Jakob has had in the 1500m (for what it is) since the last interview (in 2019), and that this improvement seems to basically come because of endurance training, and not his suggested more speed based approach. And it’s also curious that he isn’t (more) moon struck over the following fact: Jakob’s pb in the 800m is 3.56 sec slower than Cram’s -despite that he runs (for now) 2.52 sec faster in the 1500m. -This speaks loudly about how the strength approach seems to compensate -to an extreme degree- lack of 800m speed!
Cram may very well have a point when it comes to the importance of sharpening one’s 800m speed. -After all the cost of a fast 800m split (in a 1500m race) will be less with a better 800m pb; goes without saying (but maybe not if too much on expense of the strength work). But neither Cram, nor you and me know if Jakob already does some speedy things in the summer season. And we don’t even have a clue about his real 800m time…
2. I didn’t mean to disrespect the three brits (well, maybe a little…) -they were stellar athletes. My main point (that I think I didn’t express good enough) is this: Given their stellar 800m times and capacity I’m puzzled that they didn’t run faster in the 1500m! (Well, I mentioned an unreleased mile potential for Cram, and of course we can never be sure that Coe and Ovett got everything fully out either…).
I get it and no offense taken.
But I don't think Cram is criticizing Jakob maybe the way you (possibly?) have interpreted it. Like why does he need to acknowledge Jakobs all-time endurance as the driving force behind him being one of the fastest 1500m runners in the history of mankind? (and gulp, maybe the fastest clean runner ever...^^) - I think he absolutely knows this. My interpretation of that is interview is that Cram actually wants to see J.I break the WR and is giving his opinion on basically the only way it will happen because we know what the difference is between him and El G. Jakob has the anaerobic threshold edge (3000m ability) and Hicham has the anaerobic power edge (800m ability). What he said and how he said it was very "running commentator'ish" - no harm intended.
Also regarding Jakob over 800m I am on record many times here stating I believe he has much better ability than people think. I don't think he is slow at all over two laps - anyone that can run 54.2 (and 40.3 for the final 300m) of a 3.27.0 race has very good 800m ability. Maybe not in a race, but in a time-trial environment that person is running in the high 1.44's, low 1.45's minimum (Steve Scott ran 1.45.05 for gods sake).
Regarding the Brits of the bygone era - it really was and is that - a bygone era. It was an era where 1500m guys were 8/15 guys and not 15/3k/5k guys. We are talking guys that were heavily decorated over both distances - maybe they gave up PR seconds in the 1500m, but it's not like it wasn't worth it. Ovett won an Olympic gold. Coe won 2 OG silvers, a Euro gold and held the WR for over 16 years. Cram didn't quite get the hardware but has one of the best ever championships performances over the distance when he won the 86 Commonwealth Games on a crappy Scottish afternoon running 1.43.22 off 51.6 at the bell. It's like saying (NBA analogy here) "why didn't guy shoot more 3 pointers in the 80's and 90's - their scoring averages would have been much higher" - it just wasn't the way. Point is, it was only until recently the MD world realized training more like a 5k guy was the way to maximizing potential in the 1500m vs training more like an 800 guy.
And don't forget there is some nice stuff available to todays crop of runners the older generation didn't have. Like nice pacing lights that stop you running too fast and/or too slow at any point in the race. As I ran yesterday, I thought about Crams WR in Oslo in 85 (mile). He ran 53.16 for the final 400m of what still today is the 13th fastest time ever run and keeps him the 6th fastest man in history. That is absurd - with respect to how poorly that is paced. In the Nice 3.29 WR he was 2.48.XX (you can't see exactly from the footage but he's under 2.49) - in no world should he have been more than 4 seconds slower than that in that mile with the ability to basically close in 53 flat. So if Cram is running today and has his first green light at 56.5 getting him to 1200m in 2.49.5 then in no world does he not smash 3.45. But - as I said, different eras and different playing fields, in many ways.
That's misreading the history of the 1500/mile. Cram's mile record stood for 8 years. Prior to that, no one had held it longer than 4 years since Jim Ryun. That suggests Cram's mark was a significant improvement.
Yes, his 1500 record was broken later the same year, but it only went down by 0.2 of a second to Aouita. That mark by Aouita stood for 7 years. That suggests Cram was pushing the boundaries of the event forward at the time, along with Aouita.
That mile record of Cram's also stood as the European record until Jakob broke it last year.
Soft? Nope, not at all.
And on Coe: he's the only man to win back-to-back Olympic gold in the 1500. That's quite good
I knew there would be a lot of reactions, but that’s because we view things very differently, but that’s OK -very boring if everything is agreed…
First of all: I could get defensive and insist on being right, because Cram’s 1500m WR was short lived, and the mile seldom run. But let’s skip that -I will instead acknowledge your reasoning and agree in a sort of 7-8 years span. Is that long -well, compared with quite a few other WR’s it is, but compared to the current 1500m / mile records it is of course short. And of course shorter than Bekele’s 5 and 10k before Cheptegei took them down… But this isn’t the point, because my point was that slightly sub 3.30 seems slow compared to Herb Elliott and Morceli / El Guerrouj (meaning: both before and after)… And Coe f.ex used almost a whole career before he dipped under once (nearly 30 years old), with a second best mark of 3.31.95..!
My main point however is this: Coe, Ovett and Cram should have run mid or low 3.28 to catch up with their 800m ability! -It’s a paradox that these guys who mainly defined themself as 1500m runners were so much slower than Jakob, despite their advantage in the 800m..! And it’s a paradox when he is being criticised for bad 800m training when his times in the 1500m are so much better than the brits’..! Saying that, I won’t take away the fact that Coe and Cram eventually bettered Walker’s times significantly. But I’m puzzled why they didn’t run faster, and more consistently fast in the 1500m, and I think a lack of strength may have been a factor…
Cram’s mile WR is worth about the same as his 1500m pb.
Coe’s back to back gold in the 1500m (and Ovett’s 800m gold, and Cram WC 1500m gold): Here is where I’m a huge outlier, because I don’t value medals (like others). -I think they are too coincidentally -Coe could have had none, or two in the 800m, and Cram 1500m back to back, or Ovett, or Abdi Bile, or somebody else. People are lucky and peaking at the right time, or not. There are boycotts, injuries, sickness, bad luck at the day, hot weather +++. And the quality of the competition can vary a lot. Too hard to evaluate -too much discussion. Times are much more hard facts. There’s a reason why Mo Farah isn’t considered being the Goat - he didn’t have the times… And if Coe hadn’t had the late race that rescued him from his 3.31.95 pb -some (who doesn’t appreciate champs) would have called him an also ran in the 15…
This isn’t a slamming of the brits. As a Jakob fan I consider his 5000m back to back of almost no value (although it was fun to watch). -He has to run a fast one to be considered more than an also ran in the event. And his Olympic 1500m gold much the same -hadn’t covid made the delay he wouldn’t have won. And if Cheruiyot hadn’t been injured in 2021 maybe not even then…-It’s too coincidental!
I despise racing just like Jakob does (although it can be fun to watch) -it’s running (fast) that matters. -Racing is more like video games, or dart, or car racing -fun, but nothing to do with being a good runner… -Building something brick on brick. Becoming a good runner, not racer.
In 2021 Jakob was sick before Monaco -really depressing, because that was the most important race that year (Tokyo Olympics more of a clown race -hard to pb in -what matters the most). But the pb came anyway in Tokyo -I celebrated (the pb, not the -coincidental-win; pb’s are the only thing that brings an athlete forward. Not the wins. Or as Jakob says it: “ I’m not here for the wins; I’m here for running fast. And will therefore win most of the time!” (paraphrasing)…
That's misreading the history of the 1500/mile. Cram's mile record stood for 8 years. Prior to that, no one had held it longer than 4 years since Jim Ryun. That suggests Cram's mark was a significant improvement.
Yes, his 1500 record was broken later the same year, but it only went down by 0.2 of a second to Aouita. That mark by Aouita stood for 7 years. That suggests Cram was pushing the boundaries of the event forward at the time, along with Aouita.
That mile record of Cram's also stood as the European record until Jakob broke it last year.
Soft? Nope, not at all.
And on Coe: he's the only man to win back-to-back Olympic gold in the 1500. That's quite good
I knew there would be a lot of reactions, but that’s because we view things very differently, but that’s OK -very boring if everything is agreed…
First of all: I could get defensive and insist on being right, because Cram’s 1500m WR was short lived, and the mile seldom run. But let’s skip that -I will instead acknowledge your reasoning and agree in a sort of 7-8 years span. Is that long -well, compared with quite a few other WR’s it is, but compared to the current 1500m / mile records it is of course short. And of course shorter than Bekele’s 5 and 10k before Cheptegei took them down… But this isn’t the point, because my point was that slightly sub 3.30 seems slow compared to Herb Elliott and Morceli / El Guerrouj (meaning: both before and after)… And Coe f.ex used almost a whole career before he dipped under once (nearly 30 years old), with a second best mark of 3.31.95..!
My main point however is this: Coe, Ovett and Cram should have run mid or low 3.28 to catch up with their 800m ability! -It’s a paradox that these guys who mainly defined themself as 1500m runners were so much slower than Jakob, despite their advantage in the 800m..! And it’s a paradox when he is being criticised for bad 800m training when his times in the 1500m are so much better than the brits’..! Saying that, I won’t take away the fact that Coe and Cram eventually bettered Walker’s times significantly. But I’m puzzled why they didn’t run faster, and more consistently fast in the 1500m, and I think a lack of strength may have been a factor…
Cram’s mile WR is worth about the same as his 1500m pb.
Coe’s back to back gold in the 1500m (and Ovett’s 800m gold, and Cram WC 1500m gold): Here is where I’m a huge outlier, because I don’t value medals (like others). -I think they are too coincidentally -Coe could have had none, or two in the 800m, and Cram 1500m back to back, or Ovett, or Abdi Bile, or somebody else. People are lucky and peaking at the right time, or not. There are boycotts, injuries, sickness, bad luck at the day, hot weather +++. And the quality of the competition can vary a lot. Too hard to evaluate -too much discussion. Times are much more hard facts. There’s a reason why Mo Farah isn’t considered being the Goat - he didn’t have the times… And if Coe hadn’t had the late race that rescued him from his 3.31.95 pb -some (who doesn’t appreciate champs) would have called him an also ran in the 15…
This isn’t a slamming of the brits. As a Jakob fan I consider his 5000m back to back of almost no value (although it was fun to watch). -He has to run a fast one to be considered more than an also ran in the event. And his Olympic 1500m gold much the same -hadn’t covid made the delay he wouldn’t have won. And if Cheruiyot hadn’t been injured in 2021 maybe not even then…-It’s too coincidental!
I despise racing just like Jakob does (although it can be fun to watch) -it’s running (fast) that matters. -Racing is more like video games, or dart, or car racing -fun, but nothing to do with being a good runner… -Building something brick on brick. Becoming a good runner, not racer.
In 2021 Jakob was sick before Monaco -really depressing, because that was the most important race that year (Tokyo Olympics more of a clown race -hard to pb in -what matters the most). But the pb came anyway in Tokyo -I celebrated (the pb, not the -coincidental-win; pb’s are the only thing that brings an athlete forward. Not the wins. Or as Jakob says it: “ I’m not here for the wins; I’m here for running fast. And will therefore win most of the time!” (paraphrasing)…
I am impressed with Jakob simply because as Cram inadvertently admits, Jakob is not training specifically for the 1500. Despite that, he can still run 3:27. I think this speaks volumes of his 3k-10k ability. That is my only point in all of this.
But I don't think Cram is criticizing Jakob maybe the way you (possibly?) have interpreted it. Like why does he need to acknowledge Jakobs all-time endurance as the driving force behind him being one of the fastest 1500m runners in the history of mankind? (and gulp, maybe the fastest clean runner ever...^^) - I think he absolutely knows this. My interpretation of that is interview is that Cram actually wants to see J.I break the WR and is giving his opinion on basically the only way it will happen because we know what the difference is between him and El G. Jakob has the anaerobic threshold edge (3000m ability) and Hicham has the anaerobic power edge (800m ability). What he said and how he said it was very "running commentator'ish" - no harm intended.
Also regarding Jakob over 800m I am on record many times here stating I believe he has much better ability than people think. I don't think he is slow at all over two laps - anyone that can run 54.2 (and 40.3 for the final 300m) of a 3.27.0 race has very good 800m ability. Maybe not in a race, but in a time-trial environment that person is running in the high 1.44's, low 1.45's minimum (Steve Scott ran 1.45.05 for gods sake).
Regarding the Brits of the bygone era - it really was and is that - a bygone era. It was an era where 1500m guys were 8/15 guys and not 15/3k/5k guys. We are talking guys that were heavily decorated over both distances - maybe they gave up PR seconds in the 1500m, but it's not like it wasn't worth it. Ovett won an Olympic gold. Coe won 2 OG silvers, a Euro gold and held the WR for over 16 years. Cram didn't quite get the hardware but has one of the best ever championships performances over the distance when he won the 86 Commonwealth Games on a crappy Scottish afternoon running 1.43.22 off 51.6 at the bell. It's like saying (NBA analogy here) "why didn't guy shoot more 3 pointers in the 80's and 90's - their scoring averages would have been much higher" - it just wasn't the way. Point is, it was only until recently the MD world realized training more like a 5k guy was the way to maximizing potential in the 1500m vs training more like an 800 guy.
And don't forget there is some nice stuff available to todays crop of runners the older generation didn't have. Like nice pacing lights that stop you running too fast and/or too slow at any point in the race. As I ran yesterday, I thought about Crams WR in Oslo in 85 (mile). He ran 53.16 for the final 400m of what still today is the 13th fastest time ever run and keeps him the 6th fastest man in history. That is absurd - with respect to how poorly that is paced. In the Nice 3.29 WR he was 2.48.XX (you can't see exactly from the footage but he's under 2.49) - in no world should he have been more than 4 seconds slower than that in that mile with the ability to basically close in 53 flat. So if Cram is running today and has his first green light at 56.5 getting him to 1200m in 2.49.5 then in no world does he not smash 3.45. But - as I said, different eras and different playing fields, in many ways.
I'd argue based on his training alone and success in the 5000 on the world stage, he'd be able to handle the 10k just as well. His training is basically set up for 5k/10k. I don't give a crap about his previous times in those events, especially a road 10k how many years ago. He's never even run a track 10,000. You're not just world class in the 5000 and suddenly suck at the 10,000. That's not how it works - especially the way he trains.
No, a 1500/5000m guy is going to slow down faster from 5000 to 10000m than a 5/10 guy. World class 10000m runners don’t run 3:27s and if they could, the very best could run sub-12:30 for 5000m.
I'll take Cram over any keyboard jockey on Letsrun. His observation about Jakob's issue with speed is exactly on point (and was argued in an earlier thread) but most commenters don't understand what he is saying.
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Probably 1500 only training would be better suited for championship style 1500m races rather than 5k training.
If Jakob could run 46-47 wouldn't a 1:49 split be much more feasible?
No, a 1500/5000m guy is going to slow down faster from 5000 to 10000m than a 5/10 guy. World class 10000m runners don’t run 3:27s and if they could, the very best could run sub-12:30 for 5000m.
Mo Farah ran 3:28 and he was pretty good over 10k
and didn't farah basically run that solo? Kiprop gapped the field bigly in that one.
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