"I believe that Shelby didn’t start doping until after the 2019 world championships when she ran the race of her life and still got crushed. Today’s run by Monson validates my belief. If Monson can run 14:19 while clean, that makes it more likely that Shelby was clean when she ran 14:23."
This is your opening post to this thread. This implies to most people that it was before her 2020 record....
I believe that Shelby didn’t start doping until after the 2019 world championships when she ran the race of her life and still got crushed. Today’s run by Monson validates my belief. If Monson can run 14:19 while clean, that makes it more likely that Shelby was clean when she ran 14:23.
Your post has as much merit as saying El Guerrouj proves Ramzi was clean.
You really think he went from 3:30.1 to 3:27.1 because of super shoes? Dropping 3 seconds that level(world record level) from 3:30 is a big difference and takes time. It’s because he was 18(2 months from 19) that just proves how special he was and a prodigy who had the potential to drop that time. No one his age has run that fast(that I know of)
maybe wanna check again on those spikes in 2019 in Lausanne, Cheriyot was wearing the blue non-super spikes but jakub and filip were wearing an all-white shoe which is typically the color of a prototype. I could be wrong but check again.
Then you haven't read 1000 posts from Astro. He has told us for years that Tuohy is elite amd that Tuohy is a top runner. He is the self proclaimed doping expert who now informed us that all top runners are doping. He is telling us that Tuohy has to be doping and if Tuohy has to be doping at 15 minutes, then Monson is absolutely doping at 14:20.
Top college runner, not pro. She isn't in that latter category with Kipyegon and co and I've never seen him put Tuohy in that category. You're being a dipstick.
I can see why you’d interpret it that way. My bad for not being more clear. To clarify, here is a timeline of how I think it went down:
October 5, 2019 - Despite running an American record, Shelby fails to medal in the 1500 final. She is (understandably) furious because she believes she got robbed of a medal by dopers.
July 10, 2020 - Shelby runs 14:23 and breaks the US 5,000 record. She’s proud to get the record but also frustrated because she’s still not as fast as the top East Africans. Three runners ran faster less than a year before at the London Diamond League.
October 7, 2020 - Letesenbet Gidey smashes the world record with a 14:06. Shelby is apoplectic.
Gidey’s ridiculous WR was the final straw for Shelby. She thinks: How on Earth can she compete with the likes of Kipyegon, Hassan and Gidey without doping like she believes they must be doing? This is when she finally crossed into the dark side.
Top runner. Elite runner. You are incorrect. Those are the typical adjectives used. But if you are now saying those are incorrect, be prepared for Astros wrath.
Astro accuses Wiley and Valby and anyone around Tuohy's age whonis a threat. He Aldo accuses everyone who is faster than her. So everyone sub 15:20 was doping until Tuohy ran 15 minutes. Now it is everyone sub 15. If Tuohy ever runs 14:45, then the bar will move again. Monson is clean. Tuohy is suspect. She developed unusual musculature around age 16. Her shoulders and neck don't look natural.
Top runner. Elite runner. You are incorrect. Those are the typical adjectives used. But if you are now saying those are incorrect, be prepared for Astros wrath.
Astro accuses Wiley and Valby and anyone around Tuohy's age whonis a threat. He Aldo accuses everyone who is faster than her. So everyone sub 15:20 was doping until Tuohy ran 15 minutes. Now it is everyone sub 15. If Tuohy ever runs 14:45, then the bar will move again. Monson is clean. Tuohy is suspect. She developed unusual musculature around age 16. Her shoulders and neck don't look natural.
Piffle. If she had the 'traps' of a Jamaican woman sprinter on steroids you might have an argument. She doesn't.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Respectfully, gentlemen: please have your Tuohy debate in one of the hundreds of existing Tuohy threads. This thread is about American female distance runners who’ve actually been competitive at the global level.
Respectfully, gentlemen: please have your Tuohy debate in one of the hundreds of existing Tuohy threads. This thread is about American female distance runners who’ve actually been competitive at the global level.
I agree. Tuohy isn't part of this debate, despite what another poster maintains.
I can see why you’d interpret it that way. My bad for not being more clear. To clarify, here is a timeline of how I think it went down:
October 5, 2019 - Despite running an American record, Shelby fails to medal in the 1500 final. She is (understandably) furious because she believes she got robbed of a medal by dopers.
It would've been an underdog, Cinderella story of incredible proportions for Shelby to medal in that final. Shelby at age 24 having trained seriously as a runner since middle school was a 4:03/15:00 runner. She was unable to beat Rhianwedd Price for the NCAA title as a 22-year-old senior. She finished a distant 7th in the NCAA 5000. Indoors, she got trounced by Leah O'Connor in the mile. As a pro, she finished 13th in the 5000 final at Worlds, and 11th in Rio. In other words, she was an also-ran on the global scene until 2018, who finished mid-pack or near the back in her DL races as well.
Now the must-be "dopers" who beat her:
-Tsegay ran 4:02.8 before she turned 17 years old (and won World Junior Silver at age 17) -Hassan, who in her third year of training ran 3:57.00 at age 21 -Kipyegon, who won 2 World Junior XC titles at 17/19 and also ran 3:56.98 at age 19
Some people she beat: -Muir ran 4:00.07 just after turning 21, and ran 3:55.22 at age 23 -GDS ran 4:07.55 as a 19-year-old
And for Gidey: - World Junior XC titles right after her 16th and 18th birthday
Shelby had by far the most extreme and late progression.
Let's also note she is the only one of those three to ever have a failed drug test. So, this narrative is kinda bonkers that Shelby would be so delusional to think other MUST be doping
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
I can see why you’d interpret it that way. My bad for not being more clear. To clarify, here is a timeline of how I think it went down:
October 5, 2019 - Despite running an American record, Shelby fails to medal in the 1500 final. She is (understandably) furious because she believes she got robbed of a medal by dopers.
July 10, 2020 - Shelby runs 14:23 and breaks the US 5,000 record. She’s proud to get the record but also frustrated because she’s still not as fast as the top East Africans. Three runners ran faster less than a year before at the London Diamond League.
October 7, 2020 - Letesenbet Gidey smashes the world record with a 14:06. Shelby is apoplectic.
Gidey’s ridiculous WR was the final straw for Shelby. She thinks: How on Earth can she compete with the likes of Kipyegon, Hassan and Gidey without doping like she believes they must be doing? This is when she finally crossed into the dark side.
December 15, 2020 - Shelby tests positive
That makes even less sense than "after the 2019 world championships when she ran the race of her life and still got crushed" - and it's also a contradiction, when you now write that "Gidey’s ridiculous WR was the final straw for Shelby" over one year later.
That WR of 14:06 was also predictable for all athletes/insiders/experts, for it was overdue after the 14:11 in 2008 (!) pre-super spikes. That is only a 1 sec/km improvement in 12 years despite super spikes, far from a "ridiculous WR".
That timeline also doesn't match with her 11 s PR at age 27 and that USADA put her on the suspicious list years before that.
You omitted the pertinent facts that Shelby won NCAA as a junior, had already run the 1500 final 100 minutes before that 5,000 final, and got progressively better each and every year.
Those other runners you named could have easily been doping as juniors.
You omitted the pertinent facts that Shelby won NCAA as a junior, had already run the 1500 final 100 minutes before that 5,000 final, and got progressively better each and every year.
Those other runners you named could have easily been doping as juniors.
She won an NCAA outdoor title as a junior after finishing 3rd in the mile. She got progressively better at a pretty dang slow rate until 2018. She improved negligibly if at all from her junior to senior year. As a pro in 2016 and 2017 she was pretty much the same runner. 2017 DL Finishes: 11th, 10th, 8th, 8th 2018 DL Finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd
I guess your premise is that all of the runners who have been consistent, have much more believable progression, were prodigies and are still running very well today are just superior at doping over all these years and never getting caught.
Meanwhile Shelby was oh-so-close to miraculously catching up to them competing clean, lost faith, and really stunk at doping.
You don't seem capable of following a logic trail. Rhe thread is about Monson's performance proving that Houlihan was clean. We first have to prove that Monson is clean. Astro is the self proclaimed expert on doping. He stated in this thread that all top runners are dirty. He has states on multiple occasions that Tuohy is a top runner. If Tuohy is dirty, Monson is likely dirty which then does not prove that Houlihan was clean. Seems pretty clear by following the topic if the thread and the expert's opinion. Now do you understand?
In another thread, under a different alias (Steady Progression), I showed that Shelby steadily got better each and every year since her second year at ASU. See page 3 and also the cool graph showing her linear improvement on page 11:
Shelby’s progression is much less suspicious than people like Heather Maclean, Emily Mackay, Josette Norris, and Nell Rojas.
Your premise is that Kipyegon, Hassan, Gidey and co. are so much better than the USA’s best runner that even though she was doping they were still able to beat her while clean. Ludicrous!
Your premise is that Kipyegon, Hassan, Gidey and co. are so much better than the USA’s best runner that even though she was doping they were still able to beat her while clean. Ludicrous!
And your premise is that no one clean could beat a doped Shelby?
Actually the timeline makes total sense and is perfectly consistent. Shelby was furious after the 2019 world championships, but it took Gidey’s 14:06 to finally push her over the edge.
Think of it as a 1-2-3 punch combination. The 2019 world championship 1500 final was the first punch, her only being able to run 14:23 was the second punch, and Gidey’s WR was the final punch that knocked her out.
If she had been doping in 2019 or earlier in 2020, she would have been caught with all the attention that was on her.
Yes, Gidey’s WR is ridiculous. Anything under 14:15 for women is ridiculous, as is anything under 12:45 for men.
In another thread, under a different alias (Steady Progression), I showed that Shelby steadily got better each and every year since her second year at ASU. See page 3 and also the cool graph showing her linear improvement on page 11:
Shelby’s progression is much less suspicious than people like Heather Maclean, Emily Mackay, Josette Norris, and Nell Rojas.
Your premise is that Kipyegon, Hassan, Gidey and co. are so much better than the USA’s best runner that even though she was doping they were still able to beat her while clean. Ludicrous!
You’re missing the part that Shelby might’ve been Americas best runner because she was doping.