Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

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2 years ago 03/18/2022 10:55am EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
You don't have to agree with Russia's motives. You just have to acknowledge that they are rational and that they exist.

It's important to differentiate between "Russia's motives" and "Putin's motives".

Putin's motive is to stay in power in the face of a stagnate and dated economy that is largely due to his own failures of leadership. He needs a scapegoat for Russia going backward despite abundant natural resources and a well educated populace.

In retrospect, invading Ukraine appears not to have been in Russia's best interest and it seemed pretty apparent in foresight. It's Putin that needed a war. This is the fundamental downfall of every authoritarian regime ever.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 10:59am EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
agip wrote:
your official recommendation to the US is to go soft on Russia.
Got it. Thanks.
Going soft on Russia is the only reason there's a war happening.
Bush and Europe did nothing when Russia invaded Georgia.
Obama and Europe did nothing when Russia annexed the Crimea.
Why would Putin think they would care if he invaded Ukraine?

ok, so your official recommendation to the US is to go hard on Russia so they stop invading countries.

But wait...that goes against your other recommendation.

Boy am I confused.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:00am EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
The U.S. (at least) has been supplying arms and releasing intelligence about Russia preparations for an invasion since at least November of last year. That's a great deal more than not "doing anything to prevent" the invasion. The sharing of intelligence played a big role in solidifying the NATO response.
When Biden said the decision to join NATO was "up to Ukraine" it's simply a statement that NATO has an open door policy in which any country can request membership, but it includes meeting the membership requirements. These are upholding democracy, making progress toward a market economy, military forces under civilian control, respecting borders and other countries sovereignty, and progress toward making their military compatible with NATO forces. No one denies that Ukraine has a history of corruption and has significant ultra-nationalist factions and these would have to be resolved to join NATO, but that these issues exist does not preclude them ever being resolved. Likewise Russia could join NATO if they changed their behavior to meet the conditions of acceptance.
It's probably fair to say that Europe (the EU) wasn't terribly invested in Ukraine vs Russia as long as it wasn't a liability, hence NordStream 2 detrimental impact on Ukraine wasn't a primary concern. If Russia had played nice, it still wouldn't be an issue, but Russia going rogue certainly is an issue.
You don't have to agree with Russia's motives. You just have to acknowledge that they are rational and that they exist.
Russia doesn't think Putin is evil. The people like him. They have literally had nothing but dictators since 1917. Russia doesn't compare Putin to JKF or Reagan they compare him to Russian leaders and by Russian standards he's not that bad.
Link:www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/0...
58% of Russians support the war. The media portrays it as if no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself.
Russians do not view the world as Americans or Europeans do. Expecting them to behave like Americans or Europeans is silly.

jaysus this guy believes polls in authoritarian nations. where it's illegal to hold up a blank sheet of paper.

come on man. come on. You got to be better than this.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:01am EDT

re: Fluid G

Fluid G wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Ukraine was under Russia's thumb until the west toppled its government in 2014.
They didn't start talking about joining NATO seriously until Zelensky was elected in 2019.
Putin has said it was about NATO from the start. Why is it so inconceivable that Putin's primary strategic grievance is the reason he invaded?
They were only under the thumb of Russia during Yanukovych's rule. And as I recall, the Ukrainians didn't seem to like his hard turn towards Russia. Yushchenko had advocated for NATO membership and closer ties to Europe, but he was poisoned by Putin's FSB. The Ukrainian's didn't seem to like when Yanukovych tried to steal the election from him either.
Also anyone who trusts what Putin says is a useful fool. Putin repeatedly lied in the build up to the war and spoke half-truths.

Yanukovych was elected by the Ukrainian people in 2010 and he was thrown out in the coup in 2014. So Ukraine was under Russia's thumb until 2014.

Anyone who thinks everything Putin says is a lie is a worthless fool.

Putin lied about nazis and genocide as a pretext to invade to support his true goal of keeping Ukraine under Russian influence and out of NATO.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:03am EDT

re: Monkeys Skyping

Monkeys Skyping wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
You don't have to agree with Russia's motives. You just have to acknowledge that they are rational and that they exist.
It's important to differentiate between "Russia's motives" and "Putin's motives".
Putin's motive is to stay in power in the face of a stagnate and dated economy that is largely due to his own failures of leadership. He needs a scapegoat for Russia going backward despite abundant natural resources and a well educated populace.
In retrospect, invading Ukraine appears not to have been in Russia's best interest and it seemed pretty apparent in foresight. It's Putin that needed a war. This is the fundamental downfall of every authoritarian regime ever.

If the west's response to the Ukraine invasion is the same as it was for the Crimean and Georgian invasion it would have been in Russia's best interest in Putin's mind.

Putin didn't know his military would perform so poorly and he certainly couldn't have expected NATO to suddenly care about Russian aggression since they hadn't shown any indication in the recent past.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:07am EDT

re: agip

agip wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
You don't have to agree with Russia's motives. You just have to acknowledge that they are rational and that they exist.
Russia doesn't think Putin is evil. The people like him. They have literally had nothing but dictators since 1917. Russia doesn't compare Putin to JKF or Reagan they compare him to Russian leaders and by Russian standards he's not that bad.
Link:www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/0...
58% of Russians support the war. The media portrays it as if no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself.
Russians do not view the world as Americans or Europeans do. Expecting them to behave like Americans or Europeans is silly.
jaysus this guy believes polls in authoritarian nations. where it's illegal to hold up a blank sheet of paper.
come on man. come on. You got to be better than this.

The Russian version of Gallup claims to be independent of the Kremlin. How independent they are no one knows. But spend 20 seconds on Twitter and you'll see plenty of support for Russia.

Russians largely only see the Russian spin of the facts on their state media. Just like CNN and MSNBC viewers don't see negative stories about Democrats and Fox viewers don't see negative stories about Republicans.

There's captured Russian soldiers being paraded all over social media by the Ukrainians and none of them had any idea they were the bad guys.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:09am EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
58% of Russians support the war.

It's literally illegal in Russia to call it a war.

Did you mean to say, "58% of Russians support the 'special operations'"?

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:17am EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Russians largely only see the Russian spin of the facts on their state media. Just like CNN and MSNBC viewers don't see negative stories about Democrats and Fox viewers don't see negative stories about Republicans.

While there are certainly biases in western media, some pretty extreme, it's absurd to equate them with the state media under authoritarian regimes.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:26am EDT

re: Monkeys Skyping

Monkeys Skyping wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Russians largely only see the Russian spin of the facts on their state media. Just like CNN and MSNBC viewers don't see negative stories about Democrats and Fox viewers don't see negative stories about Republicans.
While there are certainly biases in western media, some pretty extreme, it's absurd to equate them with the state media under authoritarian regimes.

Not really. To this day 80% of Americans have absolutely no idea about the Hunter Biden laptops.

If Donald Trump Jr. did what Hunter Biden did the media would add a 25th hour of coverage every single day to beat the drum.

Confirmation bias doesn't cease to exist just because a country is a dictatorship.

North Koreans literally worship their leader like he's a god. Most of them aren't faking it. Media is very very powerful.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:29am EDT

re: Monkeys Skyping

Monkeys Skyping wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
58% of Russians support the war.
It's literally illegal in Russia to call it a war.
Did you mean to say, "58% of Russians support the 'special operations'"?

Trudeau just beat and arrested people for disagreeing with him. He even seized their assets.

If you don't toe the line you get deleted from social media.

The notion that the west never does what Russia's doing is silly.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:33am EDT

re: carmine9

carmine9 wrote:
noperss wrote:
Ukraine has fallen, = Fake News
Putin has won. = Fake News
Fake news for now.
Let's revisit in a week.
Hopefully there are some adults in DC and we can reach a settlement

No amount of adults in DC will result in a settlement. Putin has shown he's not really interested in negotiating. He's out of his mind. Someone taking him out within Russia is the most likely ending to this.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:38am EDT

re: Flagpole

Flagpole wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Fake news for now.
Let's revisit in a week.
Hopefully there are some adults in DC and we can reach a settlement
No amount of adults in DC will result in a settlement. Putin has shown he's not really interested in negotiating. He's out of his mind. Someone taking him out within Russia is the most likely ending to this.

YouTube.com

Putin's Invasion of Ukraine Salon | Ray McGovern, John Mearsheimer

Committee for the Republic

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To an empire, everything looks like a crisis to justify a multi-trillion-dollar military-industrial-security compl...

Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppD_bhWODDc

For anyone actually interested in an informed assessment of the situation this video is very good. John Mearsheimer has been studying Russia his entire life.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:40am EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
The U.S. (at least) has been supplying arms and releasing intelligence about Russia preparations for an invasion since at least November of last year. That's a great deal more than not "doing anything to prevent" the invasion. The sharing of intelligence played a big role in solidifying the NATO response.
When Biden said the decision to join NATO was "up to Ukraine" it's simply a statement that NATO has an open door policy in which any country can request membership, but it includes meeting the membership requirements. These are upholding democracy, making progress toward a market economy, military forces under civilian control, respecting borders and other countries sovereignty, and progress toward making their military compatible with NATO forces. No one denies that Ukraine has a history of corruption and has significant ultra-nationalist factions and these would have to be resolved to join NATO, but that these issues exist does not preclude them ever being resolved. Likewise Russia could join NATO if they changed their behavior to meet the conditions of acceptance.
It's probably fair to say that Europe (the EU) wasn't terribly invested in Ukraine vs Russia as long as it wasn't a liability, hence NordStream 2 detrimental impact on Ukraine wasn't a primary concern. If Russia had played nice, it still wouldn't be an issue, but Russia going rogue certainly is an issue.
The media portrays it as if no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself.

Bullshift. Strawman. The US media has reported a few instances where a Russian protested the Russian attack on Ukraine and promptly got hauled off to jail/gulag. That's it. There has been absolutely no attempt by US media to pretend that "no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself." None. Everyone knows the large majority of Russians are in complete support of Putin and Russia on this.

That's been reported widely by US media, including TODAY's comprehensive coverage of Putin's massive war rally. Widely reported by US media that he got 200,000+ Russians to attend the event, all waving flags, singing songs. Photos are included to properly document the magnitude of Russian support for their very popular, duly elected leader Putin.

usnews.com

Putin Vows Russia Will Prevail in Ukraine but Glitch Hinders TV

Reuters

US News is a recognized leader in college, grad school, hospital, mutual fund, and car rankings. Track elected officials, research health conditions, and find news you can use in politics, business, health, and education.

Link:www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/202...

abcnews.go.com

Putin appears at big rally as troops press attack in Ukraine

ABC News

Russian President Vladimir Putin has appeared at a huge rally in Moscow, praising his country’s troops as they press their lethal attacks on Ukrainian cities with shelling and missiles

Link:abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/puti...

forbes.com

Putin Holds Massive Pro-War Rally In Moscow

Nicholas Reimann

The Russian leader spoke to a packed crowd and a Russian pop star performed a song with the opening line: “Ukraine and Crimea, Belarus and Moldova, it’s all my country.”

Link:www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2...

You post strawmans/mens so you can pretend you are making sense. Your credibility is mashed under the weight of your own straw-mush.

#134

This post was removed.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:47am EDT

re: Colin Bomba Harris

Colin Bomba Harris wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
The media portrays it as if no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself.
Bullshift. Strawman. The US media has reported a few instances where a Russian protested the Russian attack on Ukraine and promptly got hauled off to jail/gulag. That's it. There has been absolutely no attempt by US media to pretend that "no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself." None. Everyone knows the large majority of Russians are in complete support of Putin and Russia on this.
That's been reported widely by US media, including TODAY's comprehensive coverage of Putin's massive war rally. Widely reported by US media that he got 200,000+ Russians to attend the event, all waving flags, singing songs. Photos are included to properly document the magnitude of Russian support for their very popular, duly elected leader Putin.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-18/putin-hails-russias-special-operation-in-ukraine-to-thousands-in-packed-stadium
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/putin-appears-big-rally-troops-press-attack-ukraine-83527031
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2022/03/18/putin-holds-massive-pro-war-rally-in-moscow/?sh=53ce77b62abd
You post strawmans/mens so you can pretend you are making sense. Your credibility is mashed under the weight of your own straw-mush.

You do realize there's 150 million people in Russia right? Trump can fill a stadium. Would you argue that Trump filling 1 stadium means the majority of Americans support Trump?

The prevailing sentiment in the media is that this is Putin's war. It has been said that getting rid of Putin would solve the problem.

My point was that the war isn't as unpopular in Russia as people here seem to think.

Your response. "Bullshift" the war is very popular in Russia.

lol?

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:49am EDT

re: Flagpole

Flagpole wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Fake news for now.
Let's revisit in a week.
Hopefully there are some adults in DC and we can reach a settlement
No amount of adults in DC will result in a settlement. Putin has shown he's not really interested in negotiating. He's out of his mind. Someone taking him out within Russia is the most likely ending to this.

I think you are right that the RU 'negotiations' are not serious.

but for the record, RU has toned down its public demands to something like the below. It's good to see the russians backing down. But no one thinks it means much. Russian gummint lies as a easily as it breathes.

Putin’s four demands for a ceasefire with Ukraine:
• Ukraine to be neutral, no NATO membership
• Disarmament
• De-Nazification
• Zelensky agreeing negotiations on Donbas with Putin
Per Erdogan, Putin phone call, retold by senior Turkish official Kalin to BBC

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:49am EDT

Flagpole wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
The economy was great under Trump.
The economy is bad under Biden.
People with bills and internet connections are aware of this distinction and no amount of partisan fiction will change this.
The COVID recession was COVID not politics. The 2008 recession was a direct result of Democrats demanding loans be given out based on feelings rather than credit score and subsidized the loans with the government. Bush was in office when the damn broke but it was Democrat policy which caused it.
9/11 didn't come out of no where. 50+ years of US meddling in the middle east led to 9/11. Blaming it on the guy in the chair when it happened is absurd particularly when BOTH parties behave the same way. Clinton bombed half the world. Obama carried right on with Bush's wars and toppled the Libyan government and tried to topple the Syrian government. Trump was the first actually anti-war president we've had in generations.
Both parties are terrible. Democrats are terrible AND they want to control every aspect of your life. It's an easy choice.
Wow, you are so f*cking stupid.
1) Trump left office with us in a recession.
2) Trump left office with fewer American jobs than he came into office with, a first since Herbert Hoover.
3) Biden's first year in office, a record number of jobs were created.
4) You are the dumbest, most down voted poster here, and that title was held by Sally, so that's saying something. Go pound sand.

1. Blaming COVID on Trump is absurd. The economy was booming until COVID hit.

2. See #1.

3. There's less people working with Biden's magic "new jobs" than there was before COVID hit.

4. Being downvoted by people like you isn't a bad thing. You don't understand anything. All emotion and no substance.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 11:53am EDT

re: Flagpole

Flagpole wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Fake news for now.
Let's revisit in a week.
Hopefully there are some adults in DC and we can reach a settlement
No amount of adults in DC will result in a settlement. Putin has shown he's not really interested in negotiating. He's out of his mind. Someone taking him out within Russia is the most likely ending to this.

PUTIN-sided negotiation:

Ukraine: Give back Crimea and won't join NATO for five years.

Putin: Crimea belongs to me. You will never join NATO.

Ukraine: Unacceptable.

Putin: In addition you must give me all your land to the south and east.

Ukraine: Not acceptable.

Putin: Russian will own all your land leading to NATO's doorstep.

Ukraine: Not acceptable.

Putin: You must also give me the land of all your nuclear power plants.

Ukraine: Not acceptable.

Putin: Your president must be removed. I will install a loyal-to-me puppet.

Ukraine: Nonsense.

Ukraine: You must give us back Crimea.

Ukraine: You must build a wall to keep you from invading us again.

Ukraine: You must resign as president of Russia.

Putin: No. Your next president will be an orange puppet. I will invade.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 12:00pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
Wow, you are so f*cking stupid.
1) Trump left office with us in a recession.
2) Trump left office with fewer American jobs than he came into office with, a first since Herbert Hoover.
3) Biden's first year in office, a record number of jobs were created.
4) You are the dumbest, most down voted poster here, and that title was held by Sally, so that's saying something. Go pound sand.
1. Blaming COVID on Trump is absurd. The economy was booming until COVID hit.
2. See #1.
3. There's less people working with Biden's magic "new jobs" than there was before COVID hit.
4. Being downvoted by people like you isn't a bad thing. You don't understand anything. All emotion and no substance.

You said the economy was great under Trump. Um...nope! In fact, even before COVID, things had slowed down since Obama was in charge. Trump mishandled COVID. He politicized COVID. He gets no pass there. He also did other things that weren't good for the economy like those stupid tariffs. You are full of sh!t. Everyone here understands everything better than you (well, BW is in a similar boat with you, but even he's not as dumb as you).

You are a fool.

2 years ago 03/18/2022 12:08pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Colin Bomba Harris wrote:
Bullshift. Strawman. The US media has reported a few instances where a Russian protested the Russian attack on Ukraine and promptly got hauled off to jail/gulag. That's it. There has been absolutely no attempt by US media to pretend that "no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself." None. Everyone knows the large majority of Russians are in complete support of Putin and Russia on this.
That's been reported widely by US media, including TODAY's comprehensive coverage of Putin's massive war rally. Widely reported by US media that he got 200,000+ Russians to attend the event, all waving flags, singing songs. Photos are included to properly document the magnitude of Russian support for their very popular, duly elected leader Putin.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-18/putin-hails-russias-special-operation-in-ukraine-to-thousands-in-packed-stadium
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/putin-appears-big-rally-troops-press-attack-ukraine-83527031
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2022/03/18/putin-holds-massive-pro-war-rally-in-moscow/?sh=53ce77b62abd
You post strawmans/mens so you can pretend you are making sense. Your credibility is mashed under the weight of your own straw-mush.
You do realize there's 150 million people in Russia right? Trump can fill a stadium. Would you argue that Trump filling 1 stadium means the majority of Americans support Trump?
The prevailing sentiment in the media is that this is Putin's war. It has been said that getting rid of Putin would solve the problem.
My point was that the war isn't as unpopular in Russia as people here seem to think.
Your response. "Bullshift" the war is very popular in Russia.
lol?

Bullshift. Your point was "The media portrays it as if no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself."

That's a strawman and a lie. Just today, every US media outlet reported, with photos, that Putin held a rally with 200,000 Russians supporting the war. You can read about it all over the US media. So your statement that "The media portrays it as if no one in Russia supports the war but Putin himself" is shot to shift just by glancing through today's US media headlines alone.

NO ONE, except you, has pretended that Putin and the Russian attack on Ukraine isn't popular in Russia. We know the score, Ace. Here you go:

https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2022/03/640/320/Putin-speaks-at-rally-II.jpeg?ve=1&tl=1

https://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-approval-rating-poll-latest-levada-russia-1687543

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/not-just-putin-most-russians-support-the-war-in-ukraine/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-public-opinion-ukraine-invasion/

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/03/how-russians-see-russia/

Russians love the guy. He gives them all a Russian needs. Everyone knows this.

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