Girls 800 National High School Champ Speaks Out About Transgenders in Sports

I didn't know this website had TERFs, one learns something new every day. Seriously, this reads like a greatest hits list of transphobic talking points. To anyone reading RunRagged's posts, don't let yourself be bullied into thinking that this is a normal, healthy, or productive viewpoint. It's best in life not to imbibe in the opinions of someone trying to commit murder via double quotes.

To RunRagged, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't know about your situation, nor do I need to. If you've had traumatic experiences with men, I'm sorry. I'm not blind to the fact that the world is by and large a difficult and unsafe space for women. However, the rhetoric coming from you continues to make the world a more dangerous place for trans people. It's vile, it's unconscionable, and it's actively harmful.

To anyone still reading, here are a few resources from trans creators. They may give a perspective you haven't seen before. Cheers.

Response and Discussion of Trans Exclusionary Viewpoints

https://youtu.be/1pTPuoGjQsI

A More Philosophically Rooted Discussion of Transphobia

https://youtu.be/yCxqdhZkxCo

Ok, your ramblings on surgery and medicine are incoherent, bordering on unhinged.

The burden is on all of us to be as inclusive as possible of all people, and have empathy and embrace the most vulnerable among us, so especially both trans women and trans men. I believe in treating people as they wish to be treated, especially adolescents. Yes, I very much think this means allowing trans women and trans men to compete, work, live and associate as they wish, but especially so during youth activities when honestly the stakes are low in terms of competitive fairness and the benefits of inclusion are very high. I absolutely refute the idea that this inclusion poses an existential threat to women’s athletics and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I understand well that on an individual basis this position may cause rare disappointment and inconvenience and even pain. When confronted with this difficult choice I choose to lessen the burden on those most burdened. I’m not sure how many time I need to say it, but turning away a 10th grade trans girl from a meet, or telling her she needs to run alone or telling her she has to run with the boy’s is inflicting on her a severe injury. If I need to console the cis girl that got second, so be it. The injury to her is many magnitudes less. Dispute this all you want, but you are simply wrong. Not only is this not misogynistic, it’s profoundly anti misogynistic. I deeply believe my position is the morally correct one and that yours is morally bankrupt and mean spirited. It sounds like you’ve fought hard for equality for women, but now you have a blind spot. You’ve turned your back on the very women who most need your help.

The answer to the last question is quite easy. Have you checked the website of UPenn's swimming team? Their coaches list preferred pronouns, although they are cis gender. So the swimmers have to be careful about what they say. If they were at Liberty, BYU, Notre Dame or many of the state schools in the Midwest or the South, they probably wouldn't have to. (Ainsley Erzen, the HS girls who wrote the letter cited by OP attends a school in Iowa and will go to college in Arkansas. Both safe places for opinions like hers.)

Do they have to be afraid of any retribution from the swimming community outside of school? For agreeing with USA Swimming, the highest governing body of sports in the country? I don't think so.

As for your first paragraph, I am not in a position to decide whether Wise Old Man's daughter is a competitive athlete or not. I just want to remind you that Brooke Forde released a statement through her father that she was willing to race against Lia Thomas. Is she competitive enough by your standard? (She has four NCAA titles and an Olympic silver medal.)

For the record, I am satisfied with the new USA Swimming policy, and I hope NCAA will apply it to the upcoming championship. I also hope UPenn or anyone representing Lia Thomas will not legally challenge it.

I. Rex wrote:

As far as Im concerned, Lia Thomas is the exception that proves the rule that almost every trans kid that plays a sport does so invisibly on some JV field hockey team or in some Z division soccer league where there are tons of kids better than them and the main reason they are playing the sport is because they want to hang out with their friends and have fun, not because they want to win state championships. Yet so many would tell those thousands of invisible kids just living their lives without hurting anyone that they shouldnt be allowed to do that because it might allow a Lia Thomas to win races in college.

There is clear difference between Lia Thomas (or June Eastwood and Cece Telfer) on one hand and JV field hockey players or Z division soccer players on the other. The former were willing to compete on boys' and men's team until their final season at college. That would be unthinkable for many trans kids playing sports in high school or rec leagues. For them, the only choices are either competing as girls or not competing at all.

For that reason, I don't have much sympathy for the likes of Thomas and Telfer. If they could compete for three years on the men's team, why couldn't they wait for another year before they transition? Or they could quit the varsity team if they wanted to start transitioning as soon as possible. I think one of the easiest changes NCAA could have made was not allowing to switch to women's team if they had already competed at collegiate level as a male. You have made a decision to compete on men's team as an adult, so you should take responsibility for your decision.

Wow, your post is a dumb one. Your district has 15 trans girls running under 5:05 who would have displaced my daughter from her girls 1600 m league championship race? Does your district have one trans girl running under 5:05? Does your district have one trans girl running at all? Thought not.

I did not have any openly gay students in my high school either, as it turned out there were quite a few once we became adults. We have a number of gay and lesbian students in the high school I teach at and am thankful that they are not growing up as we did. I do not equate this with the current acceptance that 2-6% of our population is born in the wrong body. If it was only a matter of acceptance where are the 35-45 year old women coming out as trans now that it is acceptable? We are only seeing the 1000x increase in teenagers. Historically about 2/3 of transpeople were male to female now that number has switched and the large majority is female to male. Female puberty is hard. As an athletic "tomboy" I am thankful I didn't have to question whether I was less of a girl/woman because I didn't fit into societal stereotypes of what a girl was.

I don't think the poster was stating there are 15 trans girls in their league, and I'm not going to say but "it could happen" because you will use the "slippery slope" argument. You seem to have a line as to where it's ok, in your opinion, to have males compete against females. You have used the freshman/soph race as an example. Is that where it is? If your daughter did improve her senior year and was fighting for one of the coveted spots in the championship race at NB Indoor Nationals would you be ok with a boy keeping her out of the race? You use the term "youth sports" to make your argument that you are all about inclusion, does this include high school sports? I can tell you my daughters were a bit more invested in their high school running careers than when they were on the Green team in U10 soccer, age-group swimming, the Pirates softball team or running the local 5k.

It sounds like you are ok with my daughter giving up her state championship to a boy but if she is good enough to become an NCAA All-American then you will argue that it's not fair that she has to compete against men? At what line does "inclusion" take a back seat to competition and why do you feel you have the authority to set this line?

Wise Old Man wrote:

Prisoner24601 wrote:

Problem is you have no clue, 5:05 is not a strong runner, agaisnt boy's your daughters 5:05 wouldnt have even been on the district meet JV starting line in the district I live in. So if required to go agaisnt boys your daughter is at home playing video games and only running in practice - hows that for inclusion?

"From strong runner" to "sitting at home"

Wow, your post is a dumb one. Your district has 15 trans girls running under 5:05 who would have displaced my daughter from her girls 1600 m league championship race? Does your district have one trans girl running under 5:05? Does your district have one trans girl running at all? Thought not.

Sorry, forgot to "quote post"

I did not have any openly gay students in my high school either, as it turned out there were quite a few once we became adults. We have a number of gay and lesbian students in the high school I teach at and am thankful that they are not growing up as we did. I do not equate this with the current acceptance that 2-6% of our population is born in the wrong body. If it was only a matter of acceptance where are the 35-45 year old women coming out as trans now that it is acceptable? We are only seeing the 1000x increase in teenagers. Historically about 2/3 of transpeople were male to female now that number has switched and the large majority is female to male. Female puberty is hard. As an athletic "tomboy" I am thankful I didn't have to question whether I was less of a girl/woman because I didn't fit into societal stereotypes of what a girl was.

I don't think the poster was stating there are 15 trans girls in their league, and I'm not going to say but "it could happen" because you will use the "slippery slope" argument. You seem to have a line as to where it's ok, in your opinion, to have males compete against females. You have used the freshman/soph race as an example. Is that where it is? If your daughter did improve her senior year and was fighting for one of the coveted spots in the championship race at NB Indoor Nationals would you be ok with a boy keeping her out of the race? You use the term "youth sports" to make your argument that you are all about inclusion, does this include high school sports? I can tell you my daughters were a bit more invested in their high school running careers than when they were on the Green team in U10 soccer, age-group swimming, the Pirates softball team or running the local 5k.

It sounds like you are ok with my daughter giving up her state championship to a boy but if she is good enough to become an NCAA All-American then you will argue that it's not fair that she has to compete against men? At what line does "inclusion" take a back seat to competition and why do you feel you have the authority to set this line?

Wise Old Man wrote:

Prisoner24601 wrote:

Problem is you have no clue, 5:05 is not a strong runner, agaisnt boy's your daughters 5:05 wouldnt have even been on the district meet JV starting line in the district I live in. So if required to go agaisnt boys your daughter is at home playing video games and only running in practice - hows that for inclusion?

"From strong runner" to "sitting at home"

Wow, your post is a dumb one. Your district has 15 trans girls running under 5:05 who would have displaced my daughter from her girls 1600 m league championship race? Does your district have one trans girl running under 5:05? Does your district have one trans girl running at all? Thought not.

Just pointing out, that if this insanity is allowed to progress to its natural conclusion, that 5:05 means no participation for your daughter, or really any XX's, regardless of how "woke" your family is. The competetion is just too deep on the XY side to even allow a small percentage of them to "transition" over and still have room for meaningful and interesting XX competetion - most girls would move to a recreational fitness activity. This is pretty obvious by just looking at the history of womens sports, but I guess its not surprising that a mysoginist wouldnt really know or care much about womens sporting history.

It feels like you didn't even read the girls well written article, could care less about her viewpoint, and for some twisted reason really despise the idea that she, and others like her, are even given National titles over more deserving XY athletes who's mental health takes primacy. Or maybe, I guess, its a misery loves company mentality, 5:05 wasnt good enough, so why should a 2:06 be good enough.....

Give me one example of a person born a male who transitions to a female exclusively, for the sole purpose, of winning in female sports.

Until you do so, 99% of the arguments against allowing trans woman participation is not based in reality

What does their purpose have to do with anything? That's sort of like saying that we won't allow Africans into US road races if their purpose is to collect prize money but if they are doing it merely for the love of the sport even though they win the prize money, you are okay with it.

I really don't understand the people calling the article well written. The article boils down to "I'm the girls high school 800m champ and I love Jesus. However, many boys would have beat me. In fact, in all sports men hold an advantage, here are 5 examples. If you don't protect Jesus-loving girls like me I guarantee there will never be another great female athlete."

There's no specific call to action, just for female sport to be "protected and preserved". She doesn't say what she's arguing for out loud, which I can only imagine to be banning trans women from high school athletics point blank. She brings nothing new to the table- nobody is seriously arguing that men and women are equal in athletic ability. She makes the jump from "men and women are different athletically", which again nobody is contesting, to "and that's why we should ban trans women from our sport." Do you see how these arguments don't follow? There's seriously no analysis going on here, it is the flattest, most 2-D approach you could possibly take to the subject, and only well written in the sense that her grammar and structure is on par for a high school student.

You ask a good question and there no easy answer, but I’m very sure that categorically denying trans girls the ability to compete with cis girls is destructive and wrong. Way back on this thread I suggested that the time to more strictly enforce biological fairness would be at the college level. Through HS people would be free to compete as they wish. Yes, that means that a cis girl might lose NB nationals, or even the chance to go, because of losing to a trans girl. I’m not saying the cis girl did not lose out, but I’m making the judgement that this loss is less impactful than the benefits accrued of allowing full inclusion. I’m pretty sure that in todays world the cis girl still had a great HS experience. I’m sure she won a lot of races. Yes, that’s my judgement. Ok, so why the bright line at the college level and beyond? Well, it seems like a natural divide. Very few athletes are good enough to go on and compete in college regardless. The athletes are older and maybe a bit better able to deal. We also are now dealing with bigger material impacts of getting a spot on the team like college admissions or scholarship money. So yes, for 99% of athletes whose organized sporting careers end at the HS level, the overarching rule is to err on the side of inclusion. The girl who lost NB nationals would still be just as eagerly recruited to college because the tans girl is now ineligible. I know it’s a bit different, but we don’t do testing for doping in hs either. So the idea that as the competition becomes more elite we impose more rules to ensure biological fairness is not a novel concept.

Ok, my argument can be viewed as morally weak because why would I argue that we must respect dignity and individual choice and allow trans athletes to compete as they wish up to a point and then suddenly and somewhat arbitrarily remove the right? That’s a valid critique. That’s because in the real world the rules we make have consequences with a positive and negative impact and I was trying to find a solution that balances inclusion versus competitive fairness. I really feel an absolute approach, though maybe satisfying for one side of this debate or the other (no trans girls allowed at any level of competition vs trans women allowed at every level of competition) is not the way to go. Finally, I’m also open to revisiting this if conditions change. If there’s really a sudden surge of trans athletes maybe it would make sense to have a separate division at the HS level. I’m not sure, but currently this separate but equal approach would be stigmatizing and demeaning, for sure. I’m not sure what the rules are in HS around a blade runner, but in an analogous situation, I’d simply let this boy or girl compete, though they might be ineligible to compete at a higher level of competition.

So you do not agree that Thomas should be competing on the Penn women swim team? Why is this not "destructive and wrong"? You argue that once a boy turns 18 he will be able to mentally handle being told he is not accepted as a woman. The only argument you have used to allow boys to compete in the girls division is the mental health of the boy. If we have let this male compete against girls his whole high school career and now tell him that he can no longer compete as a female because, you know, now it actually means something, you believe this is a better decision?

Watching my daughter dedicate herself to winning titles in high school was silly I guess. I should've told her that it didn't matter since she was only a girl. Remember this would NEVER happen to my son. Both went about their sport the same. It mattered to each the same. One didn't run as fast as the other but it didn't make it any less important as you have stated. By saying "big deal" it's only a national title to a girl you are completely misguided on competitive athletics.

You are incorrect. Many people do not believe that boys have an advantage over girls even though the data is there to support it. The Iowa Union is trying to figure out how to handle the situation. She merely provided factual data that they otherwise seem to not be aware of.

At the NCAA level I struggle. It’s still an educational environment and Lia is young as you point out. Penn offers no scholarships, but still does provide athletes with favorable admissions status. On balance I’d say no to Lia. I did my best to give my reasons for why no for Lia in college and not Lia in HS. Yes, there may be pain and disappointment all around. There’s no way to create a policy on this issue that is not hurtful to some. So that means we need to figure out what policy does the least harm and the most good. This is tough stuff and I’m trying to be practical rather than stake out an absolute position. I gave you my policy. Yours is clear too, NO trans girls allowed to compete at any level, or any level at the start of puberty. I think my policy is better.

As for your daughter under the rules I’m suggesting, I’m sure she’d be having a great HS career, setting prs, winning races even. If there’s a trans girl (stop calling them boys) in her league better than her, still a rare event, then yes, she might be finishing 2nd but still getting great times. Is your daughter only happy if she wins? That’s not going to work out even if trans girls are banned. Nothing about the presence of the trans girl should undermine your daughter’s ability to train hard and improve and have satisfaction as a runner. You are imagining a world in which suddenly there are 10 trans girls on your HS team and your daughter doesn’t make the varsity? That’s a fantasy. If that truly comes to pass, then we might need to come up with another approach. Do you have a single trans girl on your track team or in your league or conference? From a practical standpoint the rarity of the event factors into policy making. Anyway, At the end of HS, when it came time for your daughter to run in college, she would have many great offers. As for your son, there might be a trans boy who joins class that takes his spot in something, maybe the boys’ chorus. I’d say the same thing to him.

You are demanding that a competitor in the girls' division must be referred to that way? Then Hiltz must be referred to as a woman when they compete in the women's division. Different definitions are used for words at different times.

not a duck wrote:

Give me one example of a person born a male who transitions to a female exclusively, for the sole purpose, of winning in female sports.

Until you do so, 99% of the arguments against allowing trans woman participation is not based in reality

Waiting

I’m not understanding what you are saying? A trans girl is a girl and she would generally use pronouns she/her. She’s certainly not a boy and should not be referred to as a boy or called he/him in any setting. Nikki is gender non binary and they use pronouns they/them. When Nikki races, they race in the women’s division.

How does anyone know what goes on in the mind of another? And why does their purpose matter? You didn't answer my question about prohibiting Africans from entering US road races if their purpose is to win money. You sound sort of bigoted if you are basing your decisions on intent or motives.