Theoretical high school team of ritz, rupp, webb, hall, solinsky(at 17-18 yrs old). Do they beat Newbury Park top 5?

coach brosnan wrote:

If super shoes are so super then why has no one come close to the 1500 or 3k records after over 20 years? Why is webbs American mile record untouched.

Shouldn't runners be blowing it out of the water now?

Why are we just simply discounting NP times?

There's a very obvious explanation for the track super spikes (which are not as beneficial as the road super shoes) not destroying ALL records. They have only become widely available this still covid-affected year. No American wearing super spikes has gone for Webb's American mile record yet.

xcrunner22765 wrote:

This whole post is stupid since they worse old xc spikes for Woodward, not supershoes.

No, my post you refer to does NOT allow for any handicapping for dissimilarities in shoes. Read my exact words. Fernandez IN WHATEVER SHOES HE WORE beats all NP runners IN WHATEVER SHOES THEY WORE.

Many posters seem to think that us defenders of the old timers are saying:

"Yes, these new guys are faster, but considering shoes technology, the old times are actually better."

This is NOT what I wrote in any post. We do not need to figure out how much slower NP would be wearing whatever Fernandez wore. Even in Vaporflies, they are slower. Since NP is NOT faster than all their predecessors, the 'shoe question' is moot.

Perhaps they would be even slower yet without them, although I'm not convinced. I have less grass running experience than most of you reading this, but I suspect a spiked shoe would do better on any XC course that is not rock hard dirt, bone dry shortly cut grass, and pavement mixed. I would guess if NP had run a course that is a mix of wet grass and mud without any asphalt, maybe they'd wear spikes. At any rate, there is no need to guess if the shoes alone have made them faster than everyone in the past. They are NOT faster than everyone in the past.

xcrunner22765 wrote:

This whole post is stupid since they worse old xc spikes for Woodward, not supershoes.

By the way, CIF doesn't allow spiked shoes (unless this has changed very recently) and there's pavement on the course, so I'm not buying that they DID wear old spikes on that course. Another poster actually wrote the name of the shoe they wore. My post still valid.

This is legitimately what you wrote word for word.

"Even wearing super shoes, they couldn't get a single runner through faster than Fernandez"

Why are you lying? They wore old Nike Victory XC 5s with no spikes in and now you are trying to gaslight me for calling out your completely factually inaccurate statement. Totally pathetic, try again this time and mix in some facts with your BS.

That 15:37 is actually what makes GF a “talent” legend.

GF never had a healthy year in HS until his senior year — and even then he was lightly trained due to his injury history.

Once GF, became a senior, he had a breakout year. German won by 50 seconds and only ran the course once.

I know this does not contribute to The Who would win debate, but GF (after remaining somewhat healthy his first semester in college) ran 7:47 3k with a 4:02 last 1600 at 18.5 years.

Lastly, I due think their is a premium / adjustment in general to all records, not just these. Like, let’s say the Woodward record was 14:17 when GF was in HS…maybe having that carrot would have made him chase and get that time.

I would say Ritz wins by a lot. Running Lane is ridiculously fast compared to MIS.

boingspikes wrote:

coach brosnan wrote:

If super shoes are so super then why has no one come close to the 1500 or 3k records after over 20 years? Why is webbs American mile record untouched.

Shouldn't runners be blowing it out of the water now?

Why are we just simply discounting NP times?

There's a very obvious explanation for the track super spikes (which are not as beneficial as the road super shoes) not destroying ALL records. They have only become widely available this still covid-affected year. No American wearing super spikes has gone for Webb's American mile record yet.

Matthew Centrowitz, an Olympic gold medalist and 3:30 1500m runner, literally just tried and failed to break Webb’s record.

With terrible pacing too....there's no doubt the superspikes work and help. I think 1.5 seconds per K is a fair thing to say. That would be around 2.3x seconds for the mile, 4.7 for the 2 mile, and 7.5 for the 5K on the track.

Make no mistake, the NP top 4 is super-fast. You combine that with the shoe tech and superior setups than some all-time greats (in some cases), and they will run really great times. To put them in perspective let's compare them against their contemporaries (what many are doing with RunningLane) and then see their raw track times. Let's also note that we saw a generational 1500m/mile guy last year (Kessler) and despite all the guys running 4 flat or around there it was obvious he was a different level. Will any of the NP guys hit that level on the track? We shall see, but that's where you start talking about Ritz.

In defense on NP, we tend to add in the old timers pro careers. Hall easnt some legendary HS XC runner. Neither was Rupp. Or Webb. If in 15 years the NP guys have some NCAA titles or olympic births our impressions of how good they were will go up. Heck imagine what a bunch of 83x 2 miles would do. Of course when everyone else is running 1345 on the running lane course we will wonder why people were so slow....

Five of the NP guys were wearing regular XC spikes.

Bumping this thread since apparently everyone thought the runninglane course was short/too fast.

safe to say NP 5 is better than this supposed old timer all star team now.

Bumping bc on the track, NP showed it wasn't just the course that was fast. Pretty sure NP crushes the old-timers.

If it's the 2021 squad, I think Colin, Leo, and Lex go 1-2-4. Lex was their #3 for most of the year, and he ran 13:43 during track compared to Ritz's 13:44, but Ritz was better at XC. It could go either way tbh, but I think Ritz would take 3rd more consistently. After that, it's Aaron, Webb, Solinsky, Rupp, Hall, Appleford. 1-2-4-5-10 to 3-6-7-8-9, 22 to 33. Aaron was 10 seconds behind the top NP runners, and Webb was 20 behind Ritz, so I think Aaron beats him out. The order of 6-9 doesn't matter that much.

If it's the all time NP squad as seniors, I think they go 1-2-3-4-5. It's speculation since 3 of them haven't run their senior year yet, but I think it's a safe bet. I think Nico would be able to grit out a race beating Colin, but it's crazy to think that 2 of the greatest HSers ever would be #4 and #5 on that team. Even crazier to think 5 of the GOATs would all be behind NP's #5.

Not sure why Solinsky and Hall are there, is the point for it to be only post-2000ad runners vs Newbury? Even then wouldn't LV or German Fernandez make more sense than Hall or Sowinsky?? Also is it the Newbury all time list, or the 2021 roster? Assuming its 2021NP vs the stated allstar team honestly I think the win would be a tossup between Colin and Ritz. Ritz had the fitness, Colin had the kick. It would all depend on if Colin could keep up. Rupp and Webb would be a pretty even machup for the junior twins. Aaron and Sowinsky would be fighting in the back of the pack, and poor Appleford would come in 30 seconds behind everyone. Pretty much a tossup. If Sowinsky and Hall were replaced by Verzbikas and Fernandez the all star team would win. If it was Newbury's all star team, with the senior year Twins, Colin, Nico, and Aaron filling the roster it would be a blowout. L&L easily 1-2, Nico and Colin would be in contention for 3rd with Fernandez, Ritz, and LV. Rupp and Webb would probably get Aaron. I predict

1-L

2-L

3-Ritz

4-Colin with a huge kick

5-Nico

6-Verzbicas

7-Ferbandez

8-Rupp

9-Webb

10-Aaron

22-33 NP w

Rupp did beat the Kenyan and the other future NCAA D1 XC champ in the same race. Withrow just had ungodly sprint finish that race, had nothing to do with "Rupp needing perfect conditions on a track."

The only problem with an era-to-era comparison is that we now know the upside of the all timers. It’s quite likely the NP team will have greater HS careers. But, if the question switches to putting those all timers in high school now, I think the all timers win easily.