Serious discussion: Israel has the most cases of covid per capita in the world right now. What is going on?

wejo wrote:

The beauty of these boards is you can point out to people where they are wrong and they and many others may change their beliefs.

The problem with this model is it's far easier to propagate nonsense than it is to write a considered and fact-based response and those capable and interested in the latter will eventually give up and find something better to do with their time.

In the US people get tested if they have symptoms and seek a test. In Isreal testing is widespread and not focused on symptomatic people.

My kids go to a school system where there is no testing, but masks are required. Parents are supposed to report cases to the school if they or their kids test positive. In other words, the "honor" system. We have had cases in the first few weeks of school, but the numbers seem small.

I have a friend who's kids go to a school system with weekly testing and masks. Their numbers are significantly higher, but they are enforcing quarantines.

My school system will "look" like it has less cases, however it is very likely that the reality is more cases that are not identified. Their system will truly identify cases and slow the spread. Ours will not do that in a meaningful way.

The real marker is hospitalizations. According to this data, the US is doing very poorly.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/weekly-hospital-admissions-covid-per-million?tab=table

Yes, vaccinated people can get and spread the virus but at a much reduced rate of non-vaccinated. Incidence of acute sickness is reduced by approximately 90%.

jamb innn wrote:

So ignort the data that we do have. Got it.

And at what point do we say this isnt pandemic, but is now endemic and we just deal with it?

Consider the data around cases with context. This is what they do in Israel or the UK. I guess I don't really know what people want. In New York, right now I can do pretty much anything I used to do indoors. Sometimes, I might have to wear a mask but I'll be able to go to Broadway, a packed sports game, my favorite restaurant or whatever. So that feels like we're just dealing with it (e.g. the noise around filled ICUs in Alabama, high cases in some vaxxed places etc.).

Noyankee wrote:

It’s not fear mongering to point out the obvious truth, which is that this virus is absolutely proving to be unstoppable with vaccines. The more we get vaccinated, the more positive cases we have. This is well established at this point.

Could natural immunity work? Why are we not testing people for antibodies BEFORE recommending an experimental vaccine? This is the focus group that Harambe needs to begin his data on, but we have no such focus group, why?

Are you really arguing in face of all of the data that the vaccine makes you **more** susceptible to getting COVID? That's a new one. If it's true, though, that's great for your natural immunity talking point is it not? Get my jab, get a likely much more minor case of COVID and I'm protected with natural immunity. Or are you really just a guy who's afraid of the big, bad shot and trying to make up silly arguments to not get it?

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

joed|rt wrote:

The northeast is doing better due to seasonal fluctuations. The same drop off occurred at the same time last year (along with the increase in cases in the south). Wait til the winter if you think the NE is doing everything right and the south is doing everything wrong.

The South was hammered in the winter months as well, it's not like they didn't have that Winter COVID surge due to seasonal factor. What you account to seasonal fluctuations, I'd account to vaccination. After all, the proportion of unvaxxed people getting hospitalized/dying is way higher than vaccinated people.

Well the NE still has a higher death toll than most of the south (indicating a higher underlying infection rate), so maybe what you are attributing to vaccination is actually due to more effective immunity from previous infection than from vaccination. After all, as I illustrated with the Mesa County data, the number of confirmed reinfections is far lower than the number of confirmed breakthrough infections (by a factor of eight or more).

More testing equals more false positives. The test isn't as rock solid as we've been told. The vaccine is obviously not providing the protection promised.

Monkeys Skyping wrote:

wejo wrote:

The beauty of these boards is you can point out to people where they are wrong and they and many others may change their beliefs.

The problem with this model is it's far easier to propagate nonsense than it is to write a considered and fact-based response and those capable and interested in the latter will eventually give up and find something better to do with their time.

Precisely. Those with evidence are much more hesitant to make bold claims than those that randomly hypothesize and lie.

I think can think of one example of your latter point...

Just wanted to make sure Harambe that you knew I was still alive. Just had more important things to do.

Anecdotal side note in clinic over the last month we've had 3 patients hospitalized. 2 both in their 70's were vaccinated and 1 unvaccinated in his 50's. I didn't follow one of the older patients but the other was intubated in the hospital for almost a month. The 50 year old spent a few days on oxygen not in the ICU and is out recovering now despite being morbidly obese and a smoker.

In my clinic we had no cases for ~3 months. Out of the covid positives over the last 6 or so weeks 1/3 were vaccinated which is actually the same rate our county has been vaccinated. I realize that is a very small sample size we have 3 providers but that is the data I have first. I'm disappointed how ineffective the vaccine has been was really hoping if nothing else it killed the fear and this would be over but some people can't seem to let this go.

Also just found out places like big box pharmacies get $60 per covid vaccine administered. The pharmacist get nothing except extra work. This would come out to be at a minimum 10.5 billion in the US alone for those administering the vaccine. I have no idea the profit margin the pharmaceutical companies are making per shot. I'm not super conspiracy theory but you have to wonder why the push is so hard to get everyone vaccinated. Interestingly also the UK didn't recommend the vaccine for 12-15 year old's that are healthy. For younger people this really is a risk benefit analysis and I'm shocked at the hate piled on people who are in their teens/twenties or even thirties and unvaccinated as the risk is so low from covid.

amchugh89 wrote:

The variants all come from countries where you couldn’t get vaxxed if you wanted to

Not necessarily so. The virus mutates wherever it is. The apparently vaccine and monoclonal antibody resistant mu variant is in 48/50 states now. Uncertain where it began (as opposed to where it was first found). The more persons infected, the more chances for more deadly or resistant or transmissible variants. Our primary preventive measures are vaccines, masking and social distancing. Monoclonal antibodies, remdesevir, dexamthasone have a role in treatment but this is closing the barn door after the cow has left. One of my anti-vaxxer patients has had his 3d ER visit today for his Covid-19. He presented too late for monoclonal antibody treatment but is not sick enough to be hospitalized. Ivermectin from the internet had the usual effectiveness, which is zero. So get your jabs, mask up and don’t blame the doctors if you get sick and didn’t heed their advice. Yes, you can refuse but hospitals, clinics, businesses and schools have the right (at least in blue states) to mandate masking and testing. Anti-vaxxers: Don’t bother to troll my post as I don’t read the responses.

(I am a board certified infectious disease specialist physician.)

The manufacturers make it sound like their product is near 100% efficacious. Lol. The point here, Harambe, is you're not willing to admit that the vaccine was a colossal failure in this attorney's case. I'm sure he thought he had a better chance of being struck by lightning than to die from Covid after doing his part and taking the vaccine.

You can't have people dying from the disease that you're vaccinating against.

Despite Mu possibly being more vaccine evasive (no where near 100% though) it doesn't seem to be infectious enough to out compete Delta. Delta is just a beast that infects and replicates like crazy.

The real fact we should all be focused on is regardless of the # of cases (skewed by # of tests) the vaccine still protects against hospitalization and death. For example in the hospital system I work at 175 of 197 hospitalized patients are unvaccinated. 36 of 39 in ICU also unvaccinated. Let's not get caught up focusing on details that are less relevant.

WAH-DA wrote:

The covid vaccine doesn't prevent infection, it just tells the body to create anti-bodies for after being infected with covid. It's just like cold and flu viruses that never go away and will always exist and are forever changing. The current state of hysteria and fearmongering of covid is just a power grab by woke "scientists" and "doctors" who want to be rich and powerful.

Never go full ret@rd.

“Are you really arguing in face of all of the data that the vaccine makes you **more** susceptible to getting COVID?”

This is worth considering. It’s a little early.

I’m arguing that getting the vaccine without first getting an antibody test is a leap of faith into the unknown with an experimental vaccine. We’ve known for many generations that natural immunity is the best option, but for some reason it’s not recommended to get tested. And this reason comes from Fauci and he’s a liar.

Just wrong. If the pandemic was merely about cases, it wouldn't be a pandemic. It's about serious cases --> hospitalizations, deaths. If you've absorbed any of this thread, you'll see multiple posters intelligently pointing out that Israel tests a ton, is less comprehensively vaccinated, and less observant of distancing/masking than widely thought. Still, they are doing orders of magnitude better than the Southern USA states like Alabama in every important metric. So the obsession with cases is misplaced.

So funny the way people were like, "Get vaccinated! You won't get or spread Covid!"

And now they're like, "Stupid. Vaccination isn't about not *catching* Covid. It's just about not getting hospitalized for Covid."

Riiight.

I'm vaccinated, btw. I just find the doublespeak completely inane.

Noyankee wrote:

“Are you really arguing in face of all of the data that the vaccine makes you **more** susceptible to getting COVID?”

This is worth considering. It’s a little early.

I’m arguing that getting the vaccine without first getting an antibody test is a leap of faith into the unknown with an experimental vaccine. We’ve known for many generations that natural immunity is the best option, but for some reason it’s not recommended to get tested. And this reason comes from Fauci and he’s a liar.

Just when someone told you never to go full ret@rd, you went all in

Well all the variants like delta and lamda that are currently newsworthy came in existence before vaccines were available. The genie is out of the bottle. If you are at risk get vaccinated otherwise it is long past time to move on with our lives... here's looking at you 2600 bro and harambe

Ivermectin goes home devastated

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HLtCBvKI_Mc

It's not double talk. Delta's a different creature.

arunnerinwa wrote:

Just wrong. If the pandemic was merely about cases, it wouldn't be a pandemic. It's about serious cases --> hospitalizations, deaths. If you've absorbed any of this thread, you'll see multiple posters intelligently pointing out that Israel tests a ton, is less comprehensively vaccinated, and less observant of distancing/masking than widely thought. Still, they are doing orders of magnitude better than the Southern USA states like Alabama in every important metric. So the obsession with cases is misplaced.

So funny the way people were like, "Get vaccinated! You won't get or spread Covid!"

And now they're like, "Stupid. Vaccination isn't about not *catching* Covid. It's just about not getting hospitalized for Covid."

Riiight.

I'm vaccinated, btw. I just find the doublespeak completely inane.