Oops, Mboma may become a problem for IAAF

I am Sam wrote:

BuckleUp wrote:

If she was legit XX she would be running the 400 not the 200. Some of you are as gullible as f**k

This

The Namibians are not being open about this. FYI, her minders are white Namibian

Yup exactly right.

If the IAAF needed evidence high T and XY helps the 200 - here you go.

Karma Police wrote:

I am Sam wrote:

This

The Namibians are not being open about this. FYI, her minders are white Namibian

Yup exactly right.

If the IAAF needed evidence high T and XY helps the 200 - here you go.

She's XX but DSD, so has male organs combined with female - hence the high T.

VoR wrote:

congothed wrote:

That does not make them not a women though I don't see men wen I look at them people should stop calling the he's because they are not

Do you want eligibility for the women's events to be determined by what you personally see when you look at them? Or can you come up with something a bit more objective than that?

Track and field doesn't need Ms. America contestants. If it was that you would only have women like the University of Texas pole vaulter who was a viral sensation back in the early days of the internet.

It's hard to sand bag a sprint you get burned too many times when you coast in unless you are so much better than everybody else like a prime Bolt if he raced women.

douglas burke wrote:

vvvvhb wrote:

At the same time Brittney Griner was allowed to win multiple ncaa championships because not enough people understood what was going on. People that she was just the most athletic tall girl ever lol. Now there’s no way in hell the wnba will kick her “out” because those women are as liberal as it comes but also know her dunking means ratings which they need more than anything.

I’m sure they wouldn’t let a 50 year old shaq play on a team and average 50-30 a game tho lol.

Griner is allowed in the Olympics as is the New Zealand Weightlifter who was born a man but is allowed to compete as a woman, but the Namibians Born Female are not allowed to do their best events? VERY CONFUSING.

Wouldn't it be known that Griner is a biological male? What does everybody constantly say this myth?

She was born in the United States with modern medicine where her internal organs can easily be seen with scans.

Somebody from rural Africa or Asian born dirt poor isn't going to get these done on them unless somebody else is footing the bill.

No. I don't believe that is the case.

The Namibian NOC put out this statement which is quite specific

https://www.facebook.com/NamOlympic/photos/a.828366073847470/4770073503010021/?type=3

In it they say that the athletes were subject to assessments under the WA Eligibility Regulations, which are here

https://www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=656101dc-7716-488a-ab96-59d37941e9ac.pdf&urlslug=C3.6%20-%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification

That's a very specific statement, and the assessment is also specific:

3.8 The case will be assessed in accordance with the guidelines set out in Appendix 2 to

these Regulations. The standard procedure may be summarised as follows:

3.8.1 There will be an initial assessment by a suitably qualified physician,

involving an initial clinical examination of the athlete, and compilation of her

clinical and anamnestic data, as well as a preliminary endocrine

assessment.3.8.2 If it appears the athlete may be a Relevant Athlete, the World Athletics

Medical Manager will then anonymise the file and send it to the chair, who

will convene an Expert Panel to determine whether further assessment is

warranted as to whether the athlete is a Relevant Athlete.

3.8.3 If the Expert Panel considers that further assessment is warranted, the

athlete will then be referred to one of the specialist reference centres listed

at Appendix 3 to these Regulations for further assessment, in order to reach

a diagnosis of the cause of the athlete’s elevated levels of blood

testosterone, and to consider further the degree of the athlete’s androgen

insensitivity (if any).

3.8.4 The report of the specialist reference centre will then be sent back to the

Expert Panel for consideration.

Appendix 2 describes this more clearly:

1. This Appendix sets out an overall framework for the assessment of cases arising

under the Regulations. The specific procedure to be adopted in each case will

depend on the nature, timing and/or complexity of the case. For example, depending

on the circumstances of the case, the Level 1 and Level 2 Assessments may be

performed together, or the athlete may be referred directly to the Level 3 Assessment.

Level 1 Assessment – initial clinical examination and compilation of data and

preliminary endocrine assessment

2. When a case first arises for assessment under the Regulations, the first step will

normally be an initial clinical examination of the athlete and compilation of her clinical

and anamnestic data, together with a preliminary endocrine assessment (together, the

Level 1 Assessment), in order to (i) confirm that the athlete's blood testosterone level

is 5 nmol/L or greater; (ii) gather information to assist in diagnosing the cause of her

elevated level of blood testosterone; and (iii) gather information to assist in assessing

whether the athlete is androgen insensitive (and, if so, to what degree).

3. To the extent that such information has already been gathered by the athlete’s own

physician, and is provided by that physician (having obtained the athlete’s informed

consent) to the World Athletics Medical Manager for use in assessing the athlete’s

case under the Regulations, the World Athletics Medical Manager will not repeat the

process but will rely on that information, provided it appears adequate and reliable.

4. If not all of the necessary information has been gathered, however, the World Athletics

Medical Manager will refer the athlete to an appropriate examining physician, who

should be a gynaecologist, endocrinologist or pediatrician with extensive experience of

DSDs and other conditions leading to female hyperandrogenism.

8. For the preliminary endocrine assessment, urine and blood (serum) samples will be

collected from the athlete under conditions prescribed by the World Athletics Medical

Manager, for analysis by a laboratory approved by World Athletics.

a. The laboratory will analyse the athlete’s urine for at least the following hormones

and their urinary metabolites: testosterone, epitestosterone, androsterone,

etiocholanolone, 5α-androstanediol, 5β-androstanediol, dihydrotestosterone and

dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate.7

b. The laboratory will analyse the athlete’s blood (serum) to determine the

concentration of testosterone.5, 8

c. Depending on the circumstances of the case, to assist with diagnosis the World

Athletics Medical Manager may also decide to have the athlete’s blood

analysed for additional hormones/substances, including but not limited to

dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, estradiol,

prolactin, anti-mullerian hormone, inhibin B, 17-OH-Progesterone,

dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, delta 4 androstenedione, and/or sex hormonebinding globulin.

9. The laboratory’s reports of the results of the above analyses, the report of the

examining physician in respect of the initial clinical examination of the athlete, and the

clinical and anamnestic data compiled, will be transmitted confidentially to the athlete’s

designated physician and to the World Athletics Medical Manager.

10. The World Athletics Medical Manager will review the results of the Level 1 Assessment

to decide whether there is sufficient information for the Expert Panel to carry out the

Level 2 Assessment.

Level 2 Assessment – assessment by an Expert Panel

11. Once the necessary information has been gathered and a blood testosterone

concentration above 5 nmol/L has been confirmed, the World Athletics Medical

Manager will send the file (in anonymised form) to the chair of the Expert Panel,9 who

will either review the case alone or choose at least three experts (which may include

him/herself) from the list at Appendix 1 to review the case.

12. The Expert Panel (whether one person or more) will review the athlete’s file to

determine whether further investigation is warranted as to whether the athlete meets

the following criteria

a. she has one of the following DSDs:

i. 5α-reductase type 2 deficiency;

ii. partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS);

iii. 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (17β- HSD3) deficiency;

iv. ovotesticular DSD; or

v. any other genetic disorder involving disordered gonadal steroidogenesis;10

and

b. as a result, she has blood testosterone levels of 5 nmol/L or above; and

c. she has sufficient androgen sensitivity for those levels of testosterone to have a

material androgenising effect. To assess this third criterion, the Expert Panel will

look at the results of the clinical examination and the data collected as part of the

Level 1 Assessment in order to determine the nature and extent of the

androgenising effect, with the benefit of any doubt on this issue being resolved in

favour of the athlete.

14. If the Expert Panel considers that further investigation is warranted as to whether the

athlete meets the criteria to be a Relevant Athlete, then the Expert Panel will

recommend a full examination and diagnosis under level 3 (the Level 3 Assessment).

----

So the Level 3 Assessment Centres are in Stockholm, Nice, Hershey, Melbourne, Tokyo, Sao Paolo, and London.

It seems that therefore that what happened is a Level 1 medical assessment was performed, i.e.:

* an extensive hormone panel was taken including DHT, which a given T:DHT ratio would instantly confirm 5-ARD (Caster Semenya's condition), and hence conclusively that the athlete is XY with testes and lack of type-2 alpha-reductase

* the results of this were sent to the experts, in anonymous form, who concluded that the athletes are, in effect, unambiguously male.

By unambiguously male what I mean is that:

1) they have testes or ovotestes

2) they have normal male levels of testosterone

3) the doctor examined their bodies and found that they respond normally to testosterone, and there is no 'benefit of the doubt', that these athletes are androgen insensitive.

In contrast to the clear statement from the NNOC that these athletes failed what is effectively a sex test, and the fact that there is no mention of a level 3 referral to a specialist centre (which would happen if there was any question that these athletes were borderline in being female rather than male), we have the claim from the Abner Xoagub

that '“These ladies have XX chromosomes, they are females and conform to all female biological requirements,”

This is obviously a lie on at least the last point, because they have failed a sex test. Xoagub is not a doctor; rather a former boxing promoter, and I see no reason to believe his claim that they have XX chromosomes. It's of course possible that they have XX/XY chromosomes and ovotestes, but XX/XY is not the same as XX, so it seems to me the more reasonable assumption is that Xoagub is just talking nonsense, and we won't know the exact details of these athletes' conditions, but we can be sure they have normal male T as result of testes or ovotestes, and process it as normal humans do.

Armstronglivs wrote:

She's XX but DSD, so has male organs combined with female - hence the high T.

Has that been claimed, confirmed, tested etc?

How do you know?

Coe basically said they are waiting for Mboma to break FLO-JO's WR then they will do something about extending the ban down to 200M as well. Expect this to happen at Worlds next year.

I am Sam wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

She's XX but DSD, so has male organs combined with female - hence the high T.

Has that been claimed, confirmed, tested etc?

How do you know?

That they are XX was claimed by the Namibian authorities. But we see from a post above this is disputed.

Niyonsaba came 5th in the 10km. Some 40 seconds off a medal, but likely to grab medals in the future .

But I thought being xx and having male levels of testosterone didn't help beyond the mile and below the 400m...

WA has to face this situation although it is more pressing in the sprints than in the 5/10k.

DSD athletes could try also field events or steeplechase. As tough as it might seem they have to be excluded from all women's athletics, not just a few selected events.