If Kipchoge wins in 11 days, he’ll dethrone K.B. as the G.O.A.T. distance runner

McRunnin wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

I wonder if the court of popular opinion has changed their minds on this at all since last July, or if I’d still be equally crucified. Last week, I was nearly hanged for suggesting that Kipchoge might’ve struggled with Evans Chebet on that particular Monday, while people tease “Fat Kenny” and ridicule Jos Hermens’s claims that he’s bent on “doing something special” his next time out.

I’m ready to resume this argument. Eliud Kipchoge is the greatest distance runner of all time.

Here's the updated tale of the tape (which I initially posted last year under a different, non-registered, handle):

Accolades:
Olympic golds: Bekele 3, Kipchoge 2 (advantage Bekele)
Olympic medals: Bekele 4, Kipchoge 4 (tie)
World outdoor track championships: Bekele 5, Kipchoge 1 (advantage Bekele)
World indoor track championships: Bekele 1, Kipchoge 0 (advantage Bekele)
World cross country championships: Bekele 11, Kipchoge 0 (advantage Bekele)
Diamond and Golden League wins: Bekele 19, Kipchoge 5 (advantage Bekele)
World marathon majors wins: Bekele 2, Kipchoge 9 (advantage Kipchoge)
World records broken: Bekele 4, Kipchoge 1 (advantage Bekele)

Personal Bests:
1500 meters: Bekele 3:32.35, Kipchoge 3:33.20 (advantage Bekele)
3,000 meters: Bekele 7:25.79, Kipchoge 7:27.66 (advantage Bekele)
5,000 meters: Bekele 12:37.35, Kipchoge 12:46.53 (advantage Bekele)
10,000 meters: Bekele 26:17.53, Kipchoge 26:49.02 (advantage Bekele)
Half-Marathon: Bekele 1:00:22, Kipchoge 59:25 (advantage Kipchoge)
Marathon: Bekele 2:01:41, Kipchoge 2:01:39 (advantage Kipchoge)

Longevity:
Years in which they've won a global championship or world marathon major: Bekele 10, Kipchoge 9 (advantage Bekele)

Head to Head Races:
Bekele 14, Kipchoge 8 (advantage Bekele)

Add it all up, and Bekele has 12 advantages, and Kipchoge has only 3. Bekele has more Olympic golds, more outdoor and indoor track championships, more cross country championships, more Diamond and Golden league wins, more world records, and more years in which he's won a global championship or world marathon major. Bekele also has better times at 1500 meters, 3,000 meters, 5,000 meters, and 10,000 meters. Kipchoge's only advantages are more world marathon majors wins and better times at the half-marathon and marathon. Importantly, Bekele has the superior head to head record. The tape clearly favors Bekele.

But wait, there's more! We can also examine their variety of excellence and level of dominance.

Variety of Excellence:
Bekele has excelled on the track, grass, and roads. Kipchoge has been much better than Bekele on the roads in terms of victories, but Bekele nearly matched Kipchoge's Berlin marathon world record on the same course. Kipchoge has not come even close to Bekele's excellence in track or cross country in terms of times or championships. Advantage Bekele.

Level of Dominance:
While Kipchoge has absolutely dominated his competition in the marathon, Bekele did the same in cross country. One could argue Bekele's cross country wins were more impressive because the world cross country championship races he won were deeper, more competitive, and in tougher conditions than the big city marathons that comprise the majority of Kipchoge's wins. All of Kipchoge's world marathon major victories have come with the benefit of pacers, flat courses, and often ideal weather. Half of those wins came in the fall, when the world's best marathoners are split between New York, Chicago, and Berlin.

In contrast, Bekele routinely dominated an assemblage of elite milers, steeplechasers, 3k/5k specialists, and long distance guys in tough conditions on grueling courses designed to break the world's best runners. In 2004 alone, Bekele defeated the likes of Gebregziabher Gebremariam, Saif Saaeed Shaheen, Isaac Songok, Craig Mottram, Adil Kaouch, Dejene Berhanu, Alistair Cragg, Kevin Sullivan, Abraham Chebii, John Kibowen, and Nick Willis in the short race, and then came back the very next day to trounce runners such as Sileshi Sihine, Eliud Kipchoge himself, Charles Kamathi, Zersenay Tadese, Fabiano Joesph, John Korir, Abderrahim Goumri, and Bob Kennedy in the long race. Incredible!

When you consider the quality and depth of competition, the courses, the conditions, the national pride at stake, and the need to race on consecutive days, winning the double at the world cross country championships is an extraordinary achievement. For that reason, Bekele's quintuple-double at the world cross country championships may be the most impressive distance running accomplishment in history. Nobody else achieved the double even once, and Paul Tergat did not attempt it when he had the opportunity in 1998, 1999, or 2000. Abebe Bikila is comparable to Kipchoge in the marathon (two-time Olympic champion, world record holder who broke the previous record by an even greater margin than Kipchoge did, won a bunch of races, etc.). Nobody is comparable to Bekele in cross country.

Even if you want to give Kipchoge bonus points because "anything can go wrong in the marathon," it's reasonable to conclude that Bekele's dominance in cross country is at least equivalent to Kipchoge's dominance in the marathon. If so, then track becomes the tie-breaker for level of dominance, and we've already established that Bekele was much better on the track than Kipchoge. Advantage Bekele.

Conclusion/TLDR:
Bekele has the advantage over Kipchoge in accolades, personal bests, longevity, variety of excellence, and level of dominance.

So what can Kipchoge do to match or surpass Bekele for the title of greatest all-around distance runner of all time? I would suggest it's not run more marathons. Kipchoge has already established his all-time greatness on the roads. For Kipchoge to match Bekele's overall greatness on multiple surfaces and distances, Kipchoge needs to make up the glaring disparity in cross country and/or track accomplishments. First, Kipchoge needs to return to the track so he can break the world record in the 10,000 meters and/or win a gold medal in that event at the world championships in Eugene. Then he needs to go to Australia next February and win the 2023 world cross country championship, a title he has never won. Unless he does these things, Bekele will always have the advantage.

freekiprop wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

Here's the updated tale of the tape (which I initially posted last year under a different, non-registered, handle):

Accolades:
Olympic golds: Bekele 3, Kipchoge 2 (advantage Bekele)
Olympic medals: Bekele 4, Kipchoge 4 (tie)
World outdoor track championships: Bekele 5, Kipchoge 1 (advantage Bekele)
World indoor track championships: Bekele 1, Kipchoge 0 (advantage Bekele)
World cross country championships: Bekele 11, Kipchoge 0 (advantage Bekele)
Diamond and Golden League wins: Bekele 19, Kipchoge 5 (advantage Bekele)
World marathon majors wins: Bekele 2, Kipchoge 9 (advantage Kipchoge)
World records broken: Bekele 4, Kipchoge 1 (advantage Bekele)

Personal Bests:
1500 meters: Bekele 3:32.35, Kipchoge 3:33.20 (advantage Bekele)
3,000 meters: Bekele 7:25.79, Kipchoge 7:27.66 (advantage Bekele)
5,000 meters: Bekele 12:37.35, Kipchoge 12:46.53 (advantage Bekele)
10,000 meters: Bekele 26:17.53, Kipchoge 26:49.02 (advantage Bekele)
Half-Marathon: Bekele 1:00:22, Kipchoge 59:25 (advantage Kipchoge)
Marathon: Bekele 2:01:41, Kipchoge 2:01:39 (advantage Kipchoge)

Longevity:
Years in which they've won a global championship or world marathon major: Bekele 10, Kipchoge 9 (advantage Bekele)

Head to Head Races:
Bekele 14, Kipchoge 8 (advantage Bekele)

Add it all up, and Bekele has 12 advantages, and Kipchoge has only 3. Bekele has more Olympic golds, more outdoor and indoor track championships, more cross country championships, more Diamond and Golden league wins, more world records, and more years in which he's won a global championship or world marathon major. Bekele also has better times at 1500 meters, 3,000 meters, 5,000 meters, and 10,000 meters. Kipchoge's only advantages are more world marathon majors wins and better times at the half-marathon and marathon. Importantly, Bekele has the superior head to head record. The tape clearly favors Bekele.

But wait, there's more! We can also examine their variety of excellence and level of dominance.

Variety of Excellence:
Bekele has excelled on the track, grass, and roads. Kipchoge has been much better than Bekele on the roads in terms of victories, but Bekele nearly matched Kipchoge's Berlin marathon world record on the same course. Kipchoge has not come even close to Bekele's excellence in track or cross country in terms of times or championships. Advantage Bekele.

Level of Dominance:
While Kipchoge has absolutely dominated his competition in the marathon, Bekele did the same in cross country. One could argue Bekele's cross country wins were more impressive because the world cross country championship races he won were deeper, more competitive, and in tougher conditions than the big city marathons that comprise the majority of Kipchoge's wins. All of Kipchoge's world marathon major victories have come with the benefit of pacers, flat courses, and often ideal weather. Half of those wins came in the fall, when the world's best marathoners are split between New York, Chicago, and Berlin.

In contrast, Bekele routinely dominated an assemblage of elite milers, steeplechasers, 3k/5k specialists, and long distance guys in tough conditions on grueling courses designed to break the world's best runners. In 2004 alone, Bekele defeated the likes of Gebregziabher Gebremariam, Saif Saaeed Shaheen, Isaac Songok, Craig Mottram, Adil Kaouch, Dejene Berhanu, Alistair Cragg, Kevin Sullivan, Abraham Chebii, John Kibowen, and Nick Willis in the short race, and then came back the very next day to trounce runners such as Sileshi Sihine, Eliud Kipchoge himself, Charles Kamathi, Zersenay Tadese, Fabiano Joesph, John Korir, Abderrahim Goumri, and Bob Kennedy in the long race. Incredible!

When you consider the quality and depth of competition, the courses, the conditions, the national pride at stake, and the need to race on consecutive days, winning the double at the world cross country championships is an extraordinary achievement. For that reason, Bekele's quintuple-double at the world cross country championships may be the most impressive distance running accomplishment in history. Nobody else achieved the double even once, and Paul Tergat did not attempt it when he had the opportunity in 1998, 1999, or 2000. Abebe Bikila is comparable to Kipchoge in the marathon (two-time Olympic champion, world record holder who broke the previous record by an even greater margin than Kipchoge did, won a bunch of races, etc.). Nobody is comparable to Bekele in cross country.

Even if you want to give Kipchoge bonus points because "anything can go wrong in the marathon," it's reasonable to conclude that Bekele's dominance in cross country is at least equivalent to Kipchoge's dominance in the marathon. If so, then track becomes the tie-breaker for level of dominance, and we've already established that Bekele was much better on the track than Kipchoge. Advantage Bekele.

Conclusion/TLDR:
Bekele has the advantage over Kipchoge in accolades, personal bests, longevity, variety of excellence, and level of dominance.

So what can Kipchoge do to match or surpass Bekele for the title of greatest all-around distance runner of all time? I would suggest it's not run more marathons. Kipchoge has already established his all-time greatness on the roads. For Kipchoge to match Bekele's overall greatness on multiple surfaces and distances, Kipchoge needs to make up the glaring disparity in cross country and/or track accomplishments. First, Kipchoge needs to return to the track so he can break the world record in the 10,000 meters and/or win a gold medal in that event at the world championships in Eugene. Then he needs to go to Australia next February and win the 2023 world cross country championship, a title he has never won. Unless he does these things, Bekele will always have the advantage.

sure kb is better but don’t be stupid. better longevity? eliud might have the best longevity of anyone in the history of the sport

McRunnin wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

When I read this I immediately think “I’ll see your 2:01:41 and raise you one 2003 WC 5k gold.”

Mr. Harding, I believe you are not understanding the point being made by "big daddy." The point is that Bekele ran just about as fast as Kipchoge did, on the very same course, in Kipchoge's best event, just one year later. Are Kipchoge's personal best times close to Bekele's in the 5K or 10K?

The beauty of this debate is that Bekele and Kipchoge are contemporaries. Often, GOAT debates are difficult to resolve because they involve making comparisons between people who competed in different eras. We are left to imagine what the outcome might have been if we got to see them race each other. In this case, we don't have to wonder. Bekele and Kipchoge have raced each other 22 times across multiple distances and surfaces, and Bekele has been the victor 14 of those times, a win rate of 64%. All claims that Kipchoge is superior are immediately refuted by this fact. Add to that the fact that Bekele's collection of personal best times are better than Kipchoge's. One cannot be the GOAT if he has a contemporary who defeated him 64% of the time and has a better set of personal bests. There really is no debate. Bekele is better.

foggy bottom wrote:

Agreed.

I love how John Wesley Harding, holomorphic, Wise Old Man, etc. completely ignored the rebuttal I offered on the last page (pasted below), likely because they're well aware that their arguments about KB can only be successful if they creatively erase some major aspects of his career (XC dominance, Golden League dominance).

Pasted post:

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

And you're leaving out the fact that Bekele's records have been broken only with the aid of supershoes and perfect wavelight pacing. Give prime-era Bekele that technology and it's clear he'd beat Cheptegei's marks.

Finally, you (and basically everyone on this thread) are overlooking the fact that Bekele more or less dominated the Golden League meets for years, often against fields nearly as competitive as those of Olympics finals. That's not as meaningful as winning Oly medals, but beating guys like Sihine, Kipchoge, Tadesse, Kipsiro, Lagat etc. week after week for years on end doesn't count for nothing.

As others have said, those arguing in favor of Kipchoge are relying largely on recency bias, having either forgotten about or deliberately overlooked major parts of what made Bekele's dominance so impressive.

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

Agreed.

I love how John Wesley Harding, holomorphic, Wise Old Man, etc. completely ignored the rebuttal I offered on the last page (pasted below), likely because they're well aware that their arguments about KB can only be successful if they creatively erase some major aspects of his career (XC dominance, Golden League dominance).

Pasted post:

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

And you're leaving out the fact that Bekele's records have been broken only with the aid of supershoes and perfect wavelight pacing. Give prime-era Bekele that technology and it's clear he'd beat Cheptegei's marks.

Finally, you (and basically everyone on this thread) are overlooking the fact that Bekele more or less dominated the Golden League meets for years, often against fields nearly as competitive as those of Olympics finals. That's not as meaningful as winning Oly medals, but beating guys like Sihine, Kipchoge, Tadesse, Kipsiro, Lagat etc. week after week for years on end doesn't count for nothing.

As others have said, those arguing in favor of Kipchoge are relying largely on recency bias, having either forgotten about or deliberately overlooked major parts of what made Bekele's dominance so impressive.

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

I simply don’t think your points are as illuminating as you obviously do, seeing as you felt the need to post them twice. Initially I wasn’t compelled to retort because I didn’t find your post compelling. And as for “crickets” proving that your case for Bekele is inarguable, please try to understand that I’m not some bot that exists only to argue distance running online—sometimes I drink too much and work long days and don’t revisit a thread for a day or so.

I’ll briefly address your three arguments in reverse order of weightiness.

First, Bekele’s record on the Golden League circuit was impressive for sure, but you’d expect that from a dominant track great like him. I’m not arguing that Bekele isn’t an all-time great runner (out of all the great middle and long distance runners in history I now rank him #2). This just doesn’t move the needle at all for me, since I was already accounting for it.

Next, while it seems likely that Bekele could have run faster with wavelight and modern spikes, the evolution of surfaces, footwear, technology and PEDs in just a natural and inevitable part of the sport. And whether you’re talking about Zátopek, Ryun, Coe or Gebrselassie, it always looks better to be the current WR holder than the former WR holder. Unfair?—maybe, but it’s the way it is.

(Reminder for those with short-term memory loss: I think Bekele is the 2nd greatest runner ever from distances all the way from 800 through the marathon.)

Finally, I can respect the opinion that his cross country resume tips the balance in Bekele’s favor, even though I’m not persuaded. He has to be considered the greatest XC runner ever, winning 6 long course titles to exceed Ngugi’s and Tergat’s 5 apiece. I don’t believe however that 10k-12k international XC is such a distinctly different skillset from 5k/10k track running. Certainly Ngugi, Tergat, Kamworor and Cheptegei have all found success on the track. It’s not surprising that Bekele could beat Sihine, Tadese, Kipchoge et al. on both surfaces from ‘02 to ‘08 (with the notable exception of ‘07, of course). What makes Bekele’s XC GOAT title totally inarguable is how he doubled in the short course 5 times. Of course, that event was only contested from ‘98 to ‘06 before being scrapped, probably because it wasn’t truly generating the clash of the top milers and distance runners that organizers had hoped for, and didn’t carry the prestige of the long race—so I think it’s a bit disingenuous to tout Bekele’s “11 World XC titles” without qualifying that number. I’ve watched all of Bekele’s World XC wins by the way, and they’re mesmerizing, super impressive.

Wise Old Man wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

Mr. Harding, I believe you are not understanding the point being made by "big daddy." The point is that Bekele ran just about as fast as Kipchoge did, on the very same course, in Kipchoge's best event, just one year later. Are Kipchoge's personal best times close to Bekele's in the 5K or 10K?

The beauty of this debate is that Bekele and Kipchoge are contemporaries. Often, GOAT debates are difficult to resolve because they involve making comparisons between people who competed in different eras. We are left to imagine what the outcome might have been if we got to see them race each other. In this case, we don't have to wonder. Bekele and Kipchoge have raced each other 22 times across multiple distances and surfaces, and Bekele has been the victor 14 of those times, a win rate of 64%. All claims that Kipchoge is superior are immediately refuted by this fact. Add to that the fact that Bekele's collection of personal best times are better than Kipchoge's. One cannot be the GOAT if he has a contemporary who defeated him 64% of the time and has a better set of personal bests. There really is no debate. Bekele is better.

First, they are not truly contemporaries in the way you suggest. Peak Bekele was 2000-10 and peak Kipchoge was 2010-present. Also, this win counting is just a stupid way to compare them. When your dominant event is the marathon of course you can’t wrack up as many wins and titles as you can in the 5/10/xc. Head to head match ups are dumb too. Bekele seems incapable of beating Kipchoge in the marathon. That Kipchoge did not get more chances to prove this is not on EK. I’ll say it again, Kipchoge’s dominance in the marathon is greater and more remarkable than Bekele’s at the shorter distances. If you are the fastest 5000 runner in the world, you generally win. That’s just not the history of the marathon. To win with the consistency of EK over this many years is a freakish accomplishment not even hinted at by the other great marathoners. Let’s not discount the 1:59:40 either. I know all the purists hate it, but it was a significant achievement. Yes, KB popped a great run in Berlin, but yes, EK took him down in 2003. These are one offs. Tell me, would you rather have won 2 marathon majors, a silver and two bronze majors and have the 2nd fastest time ever, or win a WC 5000, WC silver, world junior xc gold, Olympic silver and bronze. Close call. I’ll take Kipchoge.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

Agreed.

I love how John Wesley Harding, holomorphic, Wise Old Man, etc. completely ignored the rebuttal I offered on the last page (pasted below), likely because they're well aware that their arguments about KB can only be successful if they creatively erase some major aspects of his career (XC dominance, Golden League dominance).

Pasted post:

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

And you're leaving out the fact that Bekele's records have been broken only with the aid of supershoes and perfect wavelight pacing. Give prime-era Bekele that technology and it's clear he'd beat Cheptegei's marks.

Finally, you (and basically everyone on this thread) are overlooking the fact that Bekele more or less dominated the Golden League meets for years, often against fields nearly as competitive as those of Olympics finals. That's not as meaningful as winning Oly medals, but beating guys like Sihine, Kipchoge, Tadesse, Kipsiro, Lagat etc. week after week for years on end doesn't count for nothing.

As others have said, those arguing in favor of Kipchoge are relying largely on recency bias, having either forgotten about or deliberately overlooked major parts of what made Bekele's dominance so impressive.

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

I simply don’t think your points are as illuminating as you obviously do, seeing as you felt the need to post them twice. Initially I wasn’t compelled to retort because I didn’t find your post compelling. And as for “crickets” proving that your case for Bekele is inarguable, please try to understand that I’m not some bot that exists only to argue distance running online—sometimes I drink too much and work long days and don’t revisit a thread for a day or so.

I’ll briefly address your three arguments in reverse order of weightiness.

First, Bekele’s record on the Golden League circuit was impressive for sure, but you’d expect that from a dominant track great like him. I’m not arguing that Bekele isn’t an all-time great runner (out of all the great middle and long distance runners in history I now rank him #2). This just doesn’t move the needle at all for me, since I was already accounting for it.

Next, while it seems likely that Bekele could have run faster with wavelight and modern spikes, the evolution of surfaces, footwear, technology and PEDs in just a natural and inevitable part of the sport. And whether you’re talking about Zátopek, Ryun, Coe or Gebrselassie, it always looks better to be the current WR holder than the former WR holder. Unfair?—maybe, but it’s the way it is.

(Reminder for those with short-term memory loss: I think Bekele is the 2nd greatest runner ever from distances all the way from 800 through the marathon.)

Finally, I can respect the opinion that his cross country resume tips the balance in Bekele’s favor, even though I’m not persuaded. He has to be considered the greatest XC runner ever, winning 6 long course titles to exceed Ngugi’s and Tergat’s 5 apiece. I don’t believe however that 10k-12k international XC is such a distinctly different skillset from 5k/10k track running. Certainly Ngugi, Tergat, Kamworor and Cheptegei have all found success on the track. It’s not surprising that Bekele could beat Sihine, Tadese, Kipchoge et al. on both surfaces from ‘02 to ‘08 (with the notable exception of ‘07, of course). What makes Bekele’s XC GOAT title totally inarguable is how he doubled in the short course 5 times. Of course, that event was only contested from ‘98 to ‘06 before being scrapped, probably because it wasn’t truly generating the clash of the top milers and distance runners that organizers had hoped for, and didn’t carry the prestige of the long race—so I think it’s a bit disingenuous to tout Bekele’s “11 World XC titles” without qualifying that number. I’ve watched all of Bekele’s World XC wins by the way, and they’re mesmerizing, super impressive.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

Agreed.

I love how John Wesley Harding, holomorphic, Wise Old Man, etc. completely ignored the rebuttal I offered on the last page (pasted below), likely because they're well aware that their arguments about KB can only be successful if they creatively erase some major aspects of his career (XC dominance, Golden League dominance).

Pasted post:

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

And you're leaving out the fact that Bekele's records have been broken only with the aid of supershoes and perfect wavelight pacing. Give prime-era Bekele that technology and it's clear he'd beat Cheptegei's marks.

Finally, you (and basically everyone on this thread) are overlooking the fact that Bekele more or less dominated the Golden League meets for years, often against fields nearly as competitive as those of Olympics finals. That's not as meaningful as winning Oly medals, but beating guys like Sihine, Kipchoge, Tadesse, Kipsiro, Lagat etc. week after week for years on end doesn't count for nothing.

As others have said, those arguing in favor of Kipchoge are relying largely on recency bias, having either forgotten about or deliberately overlooked major parts of what made Bekele's dominance so impressive.

You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.

I simply don’t think your points are as illuminating as you obviously do, seeing as you felt the need to post them twice. Initially I wasn’t compelled to retort because I didn’t find your post compelling. And as for “crickets” proving that your case for Bekele is inarguable, please try to understand that I’m not some bot that exists only to argue distance running online—sometimes I drink too much and work long days and don’t revisit a thread for a day or so.

I’ll briefly address your three arguments in reverse order of weightiness.

First, Bekele’s record on the Golden League circuit was impressive for sure, but you’d expect that from a dominant track great like him. I’m not arguing that Bekele isn’t an all-time great runner (out of all the great middle and long distance runners in history I now rank him #2). This just doesn’t move the needle at all for me, since I was already accounting for it.

Next, while it seems likely that Bekele could have run faster with wavelight and modern spikes, the evolution of surfaces, footwear, technology and PEDs in just a natural and inevitable part of the sport. And whether you’re talking about Zátopek, Ryun, Coe or Gebrselassie, it always looks better to be the current WR holder than the former WR holder. Unfair?—maybe, but it’s the way it is.

(Reminder for those with short-term memory loss: I think Bekele is the 2nd greatest runner ever from distances all the way from 800 through the marathon.)

Finally, I can respect the opinion that his cross country resume tips the balance in Bekele’s favor, even though I’m not persuaded. He has to be considered the greatest XC runner ever, winning 6 long course titles to exceed Ngugi’s and Tergat’s 5 apiece. I don’t believe however that 10k-12k international XC is such a distinctly different skillset from 5k/10k track running. Certainly Ngugi, Tergat, Kamworor and Cheptegei have all found success on the track. It’s not surprising that Bekele could beat Sihine, Tadese, Kipchoge et al. on both surfaces from ‘02 to ‘08 (with the notable exception of ‘07, of course). What makes Bekele’s XC GOAT title totally inarguable is how he doubled in the short course 5 times. Of course, that event was only contested from ‘98 to ‘06 before being scrapped, probably because it wasn’t truly generating the clash of the top milers and distance runners that organizers had hoped for, and didn’t carry the prestige of the long race—so I think it’s a bit disingenuous to tout Bekele’s “11 World XC titles” without qualifying that number. I’ve watched all of Bekele’s World XC wins by the way, and they’re mesmerizing, super impressive.

McRunnin wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

First, they are not truly contemporaries in the way you suggest. Peak Bekele was 2000-10 and peak Kipchoge was 2010-present. Also, this win counting is just a stupid way to compare them. When your dominant event is the marathon of course you can’t wrack up as many wins and titles as you can in the 5/10/xc. Head to head match ups are dumb too. Bekele seems incapable of beating Kipchoge in the marathon. That Kipchoge did not get more chances to prove this is not on EK. I’ll say it again, Kipchoge’s dominance in the marathon is greater and more remarkable than Bekele’s at the shorter distances. If you are the fastest 5000 runner in the world, you generally win. That’s just not the history of the marathon. To win with the consistency of EK over this many years is a freakish accomplishment not even hinted at by the other great marathoners. Let’s not discount the 1:59:40 either. I know all the purists hate it, but it was a significant achievement. Yes, KB popped a great run in Berlin, but yes, EK took him down in 2003. These are one offs. Tell me, would you rather have won 2 marathon majors, a silver and two bronze majors and have the 2nd fastest time ever, or win a WC 5000, WC silver, world junior xc gold, Olympic silver and bronze. Close call. I’ll take Kipchoge.

Head to head matchups are dumb?! That has to be the most ridiculous comment I've ever read on this site. Isn't the point of running races to defeat the people you're matched up against?

Funny how Kipchoge fans point to his 2003 world championship 5k win over a tired Bekele as evidence that Kipchoge was great on the track or on Bekele's level, but then turn around and try to dismiss the many other times Bekele beat Kipchoge on the track and on the grass. You can't have it both ways!

Just as it's not Kipchoge's fault they haven't raced more times in the marathon, it's not Bekele's fault the Ethiopian federation foolishly left him off their 2016 Olympic marathon team. If Bekele was able to run in those Games, we likely wouldn't even be having this discussion because Bekele would have won, evidenced by the fact that he nearly broke the world record just a month after those Games.

Yes, they are contemporaries. They are only 2 years apart in age, and they have been competing on the senior circuit in the same years. The only difference is Bekele got his start one year earlier.

Kipchoge did not peak starting in 2010. He just discovered in 2013 the one and only event in which he could dominate and challenge a world record. He realized his true gift was being a great marathoner. Good for him!

Kipchoge has been consistently dominant in one event. Bekele was consistently dominant in multiple events and surfaces. And for good measure Bekele achieved a PB in the marathon that's on par with Kipchoge's. Kipchoge does not have a track PB that's on par with Bekele's.

If you favor Kipchoge's career over Bekele's, you do you. I'll take the guy who has more Olympic gold medals, who broke more world records, has more global championships, more years in which they won a global championship or world marathon major, the better set of personal bests, more variety of excellence, and the better head to head record.

Side note: Kipchoge's greatness and consistency in the marathon is not unprecedented. In fact, I would argue that Abebe Bikila was more accomplished in his time. Before Kipchoge won his 11 marathons, Abebe Bikila won 12. Kipchoge has won two Olympic marathon golds; so did Bikila. Kipchoge won his first Olympic marathon gold while wearing supershoes that gave him a competitive advantage over runners who didn't have access to that technology; Bikila won his first Olympic marathon gold while running ... barefoot! Kipchoge has broken the marathon world record once; Bikila broke it twice. Kipchoge lowered the marathon world record by 78 seconds; Bikila lowered it by 104 seconds.

Wise Old Man wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

Head to head matchups are dumb?! That has to be the most ridiculous comment I've ever read on this site. Isn't the point of running races to defeat the people you're matched up against?

Funny how Kipchoge fans point to his 2003 world championship 5k win over a tired Bekele as evidence that Kipchoge was great on the track or on Bekele's level, but then turn around and try to dismiss the many other times Bekele beat Kipchoge on the track and on the grass. You can't have it both ways!

Just as it's not Kipchoge's fault they haven't raced more times in the marathon, it's not Bekele's fault the Ethiopian federation foolishly left him off their 2016 Olympic marathon team. If Bekele was able to run in those Games, we likely wouldn't even be having this discussion because Bekele would have won, evidenced by the fact that he nearly broke the world record just a month after those Games.

Yes, they are contemporaries. They are only 2 years apart in age, and they have been competing on the senior circuit in the same years. The only difference is Bekele got his start one year earlier.

Kipchoge did not peak starting in 2010. He just discovered in 2013 the one and only event in which he could dominate and challenge a world record. He realized his true gift was being a great marathoner. Good for him!

Kipchoge has been consistently dominant in one event. Bekele was consistently dominant in multiple events and surfaces. And for good measure Bekele achieved a PB in the marathon that's on par with Kipchoge's. Kipchoge does not have a track PB that's on par with Bekele's.

If you favor Kipchoge's career over Bekele's, you do you. I'll take the guy who has more Olympic gold medals, who broke more world records, has more global championships, more years in which they won a global championship or world marathon major, the better set of personal bests, more variety of excellence, and the better head to head record.

Side note: Kipchoge's greatness and consistency in the marathon is not unprecedented. In fact, I would argue that Abebe Bikila was more accomplished in his time. Before Kipchoge won his 11 marathons, Abebe Bikila won 12. Kipchoge has won two Olympic marathon golds; so did Bikila. Kipchoge won his first Olympic marathon gold while wearing supershoes that gave him a competitive advantage over runners who didn't have access to that technology; Bikila won his first Olympic marathon gold while running ... barefoot! Kipchoge has broken the marathon world record once; Bikila broke it twice. Kipchoge lowered the marathon world record by 78 seconds; Bikila lowered it by 104 seconds.

Bikila, seriously? That was when the marathon was a novelty event and the fields were truly weak. Do you want to do a deep dive on that point? Do you think even your goat, Bekele could have matched Zatopek in 52 in this modern era? Of course not. Is Zatopek’s 52 Olympics truly greater than Bekele in2008? Definitely not. Also, I’m not saying head to head match ups are unimportant, I’m talking about simply counting the number of wins as a market of dominance. If your the better 5/10 runner, of course you will have more wins. Yes, Bekele is a better 5/10 runner than Kipchoge and Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele. What I’m saying, and what your not refuting, is that Kipchoge is a better marathon runner than Bekele is a 5/10 runner and Kipchoge is a better 5/10 runner than Bekele is a marathon runner, so EK > KB. Everybody knows the 5/10 are highly linked and double champions are not that rare. I do not think that Bekele had a better Olympic career than Kipchoge and if the latter managed to win in Paris it would be a rout.