Training in racing flats?

How about shoe recommendations for guys weighing 170 lbs. (I'm 6'4") who are without achilles type injuries, but run almost exclusively on pavement per necessity.

I know there doesn't seem to be much info on Japanese runners out there, but does anyone know how many miles they get out of each pair of flats? And what surfaces they run on? It seems to me we should know what they're doing, if they're going to be used to support the "wear flats" argument.

So what is your big secret? Do you charge for it or something?

nobody wrote:

I know a 100% CURE for pf.I can demonstrate exactly what causes pf.And since you are such a thoughtful even handed fellow who is most of all interested in finding the truth I am going to share it with you.

Jason could probably answer that question. I can't believe people were getting pissed at each other about racing flats. I'm not trying to seduce anyone into wearing them, just getting information out there. Here is an Owen Anderson article (for what it's worth) that makes some decent points-I had it bookmarked but forgot about it.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0636.htm

not fat,

How light do you want to go? I've heard good things about the brand new (I think released today) Adidas Rotterdam-a lightweight trainer (I think around 10 oz)-you might want to try it. Here's the link:

http://www.letsrun.com/shoes.php?shoe=rotterdam

I'm interested in the ideas expressed on this board, but as always I have to add my own personal caveat seeing that most advice is geared toward people weighing considerable less than me, though I have always considered myself quite fit. I've always worn lightweight trainers, but 10 oz. I believe is slightly less than I've used. Thanks for the link post. I'm just worried about conjuring new injuries via wearing racing flats. My injuries are not achilles-related, which is the injury that lighter shoes seem to be most curing.

Average_Joe wrote:

If I am ever able to do more mileage than that in flats I certainly will give it a shot -- God knows I've got enough unused racing flats stored to last me for several years. But so far I still need heavier more cushioned shoes for some days.

Your feet and legs get tired in the flats because the soles are too soft.

If you had harder soles on your flats they wouldn't be bothering your legs so much.

4 step 100% Cure:)

1.No running until the pf heel connection has healed.

X-Trning is great as long as it does not keep the pf

connection from healing.

2.Use tape for support of the pf.

3.Breakup all scar tissue around the torn area.

4.Find the root cause.

The following post explains what caused my pf and

I suspect is the cause of most cases of pf.

(originally postsed awhile back on pf thread)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=94943&thread=94787

Text:

I have discovered a cause of pf.There might be others but

this one is a doozy and you will not like what I am about to

tell you.

First let me tell you about my last month of running and how it

relates to my pf cure.

I have been searching for the perfect running shoe for many years.

The perfect shoe is one that is as close to barefoot while providing

protection from rocks,glass etc.A month ago while in REI I noticed a

very interesting water shoe the Teva Proton.The shoe is like a mocasin

with a rounded sole that is very much like the roundness of the sides

of

your foot.The proton has no midsole and no raised heel.

At first running in these shoes quickly fatigued my mid calf to the

point where

I had to quit running.It also put a slight strain on my achilles

tendons and my

heels were taking some pounding but my pf totally quit hurting.Also I

really

liked the amount of proprioception/feel.My stride really cleaned up.I

also

limited my proton runs to slow softsurface as the shoe has very little

cushion

and the low/no heel stressed my achilles/calves.I did start to notice

just how

much my regular running shoes were built up in the heel area.They

really

started to feel like high heel shoes not good at all and my pf would

allways

reappear after running in the running shoes.

Gradually I did more and more of my runs in the protons even the faster

ones

and even on pavement.My body just adapted to not having the cushion.My

legs

started acting as cushions,my heels,achilles and calfs adapted to

having no

heel.I started running alot faster and with no pf pain!

About 2 weeks ago while running down a slight hill I figured out the

cause of

pf....I noticed a slight forward slide of my foot upon contacting the

ground at

a downward angle from the downhill.I also noticed a slight pulling at

the

inside front of my heel.This is exactly the point where the pf attaches

to the

heel!So I am saying that running shoes which have a heel built up

higher than

the forefoot is like allways running downhill!!!!This is the cause of

pf.

Take your bare foot and scuff it against the ground with some forward

motion

and you will understand what I am saying.

On every foot landing shoes with a builtup heels iritates the pf

connection

point.Eventually this causes pf.

I no longer wear running shoes at all.I only run in the heeless teva

protons(did a 16.5 miler the other day no problem) and I wear either

heeless

birkenstock sandals or heeless tennis shoes during the day(a pair of

womens

hanes tennis shoes 9 bucks at wallmart).

I suggest that during the day you wear a shoe with no builtup heel that

is also

very flexible just to see if it helps , then if it does get a pair of

the teva

protons(35 bucks) and try jogging in them on softsurface.

hulst wrote:

From article outlining Moroccan training system (Link:

http://www.onrunning.com/runners_services/training/features/moroccan-routetotop.asp

)

"Interestingly, as it is generally believed that heavy well-cushioned running shoes are needed to avoid injury, they believe that light 'racing flats' should be worn on training runs, usually around 30 minutes for El Guerrouj, as the chunky trainer allows the foot to become less functional. On this note, they also believe in walking on sand to develop the muscles surrounding the foot and ankle."

hulst -

Thanks for the info. The link is not opening but I will try it later.

great article.

that was my e-mail to O.A. last year!! I also spoke to him over the phone about the topic in depth, very interesting. Since then I have moved "up" to road flats to protest from stone pains. Need to know more?

The link is still not coming up for me.

The comments assuming that many or most Americans have weak feet make me wonder how much time most people spend in their shoes during an average day and how much variation there is. I think that on average I am barefoot or wearing just socks the great majority of my waking life. Do most people really wear shoes even when in their homes? (Seems so uncomfortable!) Maybe it is because I grew up with a no-shoes-in-the-house rule and most people in Alaska where I live now also have this rule in their homes(to prevent mud, ice, or snow dripping from shoes from making a mess). Even walking outside in the yard or something I go barefoot/socks or flat $2 flip flops.

I find it really awkward to run in shoes with a significant heel lift... they make my heels hit the ground jarringly and mess up my stride. I use training shoes with relatively low heels most of the time and have had success in the past training in racing flats. But while I can put thousands of miles into many trainers (my record is about 4500 miles in a cheap pair of Converses), I have had to dump most non-medial posted racers after a couple hundred miles when they START causing knee pain (I have never really been injured in 18 years of running). An exception - I have well over 1000 miles in my Adidas lightfoot trail racers (8.7 oz in size 11), which I love except that have noticeably too much toe spring (the up curve under the toes keep my toes from pressing the ground as strongly) at least when I think about it when standing around - and this was before I heard the term "toe spring". But I have done very rocky/rooted/muddy 25 mile trail races in them comfortably so they are golden. Unfortunately for me they have been discontinued.

ok, so i think i'm bought on this racing flats idea. i'm a 6'1 155 lb. collegiate runner with flat feet, midfoot striker. anybody with a reccomended shoe model?

i've noticed, especially in the past year, that when running in trainers my stride just feels like straight shit. i have noticed that since i got orthodics last year, i tend to suppinate a lot more, whereas when wearing spikes or flats my stride is much more neutral. my stride is usually too long while running in trainers, and, though i don't have any pain in my feet while wearing trainers(which happens occasionally when wearing racing flats, though i wear the gel magics with the medial post), i do have a history of leg pain in my knees and behind my knees. i've been trying to bump up my milage but am having problems with it. i just can't get rid of all this soreness and it seems too risky most of the time. i'm willing to give this a try. the only time i really feel like a runner is in lighter shoes.

I'm a 130lb, 5'10'' runner. I never really had any problems either way training. Did most of my training in Pegasus 2000, and currently have a couple pairs I picked up by a little luck and I'm training in them now.

I got injured this winter after making a switch to Mizuno Wave Riders. It wasn't a foot, ankle or knee injury, it was sciatica. This, for whatever reason, eventually has translated itself in to sacroiliac (SI) pain that has lingered around for a while. I've started running after almost 3 months, and haven't had anything flare up.

Before Sciatica hit me, I was having foot pains. The ball of my foot would get sore, and my ankle would tighten up. This pain has lingered around, and it's finally getting a little bit better with my new pairs of pegasus. It's not pefect yet, but I've started running and the pain has decreased.

How would doing some training in flats affect me? As far as I know, I'm pretty neutral and not too inefficient. Anyone else have experience in similar situations?

dunes runner-

You might try google. I tried searching for the article using: (Hicham El-Guerrouj+training+30 minutes+sand)

The article you're looking for comes up as the second link on the results page after performing this search (not sure this will work any better however). I attempted to go to onrunning.com and search for the article in the archive but was unsuccessful. If you're looking for more information on the Moroccan system Marius has an informative piece at

www.marius-bakken.com

under "training corner", "moroccan system" (or something to that effect) if you have not yet seen the article.

Steve

This is a response to this thread in general. I have owned 4 pairs of custom orthotics, each of them causing various injuries, usually IT band tendonitis and once Sciatica. I wear them because I have falling arches, and when I don't have some sort of a good arch support, one of my FHL's (I have had three FHL surgeries) hurts a lot. Recently, I had a fourth pair made. I developed IT band tendonitis in the the origin of my IT Band (hip area) and it has become a persisitant injury.

So, obviously orthotics aren't for me. But, more importantly, what should someone with falling arches do to avoid ankle pain?

1. to mr. running store: i also worked in a shoe store and can empathize; not all people are made to run in flats/shoes. and i thought people who ran in flats all the time were insane. i also enjoyed the "at cost" shoe deal. BUT...

...now, after a number of injuries, i have seen that people need to be treated more individually. some will succeed in flats, some trainers, some with orthotics, some barefoot.

that said, the following is my reasoning and experience for barefoot/racing flat running:

2. i took a pair of asic gel freaks (since discontinued) to the 1996 olympic games podiatrist and good friend. quote: "these are the best shoes i've seen in a decade!" mentioned something about low heel, lots of flexion, no arch post.

3. i ran, unknowingly, on a partially torn achilles for 2.5 years (bad doctors). i could run much more mileage, much faster, which much less pain in the freaks (size 10s were 9.5oz) than in comparable other asics, nikes, and saucony models.

4. while shsdowing an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in running here in austin, i was flipping through his 2000-page textbook on legs/injuries. found extensive data from both force plate and EMG studies which concluded that barefoot running is actually MORE biomechanically sound. reason: the natural pronation ("over" pronation is actually NOT generally a problem, just a result of greater hip rotation, and therefore PREFERABLE, unlike what shoe people will tell you) actually REDUCES STRESS ON THE ACHILLES AND ANKLE.

5. from the above source, your arch is a natural (by shape--it's an arch) and material (high tensile strength, moderately flexible plantar fascia) shock absorber.

6. from evolutionary biology background: we didn't evolve to have feet like we do for nothing. our ancestors, once they began to walk upright, developed arches that most apes would envy to support our bipedal activity. we were hunters/gatherers/nomads, designed to travel long distances BAREFOOT.

7. from personal experience: ironically, BEFORE reading this post, i was fed up with the standard physical therapy for my achilles tendonitis. i took to walking 1-3 miles a day barefoot, on grass and sometimes sidewalks. in 8 days i have already seen major improvment to the point i ran a mile on a treadmill barefoot yesterday pain free. i could not run 100m pain free 2 weeks ago.

8. CONCLUSION: i am NOT advocating everyone step out of their shoes. hell, i'm not goign to; austin's got too many bad streets, broken glass, and condoms lying around. but i AM going to integrate barefoot running into my routine PERMANENTLY. you have to experiment with what works. i just know that i have been told many different things--and done the telling when i worked in a store, truth be told--and you have to go with what works.

if it ain't broke, don't fix it. but if pressed, i can quote/post plenty of other data/examples/articles relating to achilles/ankle stress as a result of shoes.

most importantly: GOOD LUCK to everyone, shoes or no!!!

cheers,

greg

Greg, I also live in Austin (TX) and have been suffering from achilles tendonitis for a couple years. This thread has prompted me to go from wearing orthotics and trainers to very minimal shoes and thus far the results have been nothing but positive. I wasn't running much before because I couldn't shake the pain, but now the recovery in my lower legs is about three times faster than before, and I feel like my mechanics are a whole lot better. If you're wanting to walk around barefoot the sand volleyball courts down at Zilker are good. I figured if the Moroccans do it I would give it a try as well. Hope things continue to go well for each of us.

not much to do with the thread but man, gel freaks were the best trainers I ever wore. Picked up two pairs a shoe store had laying forgotten in a back room. I wish I could find those now.