Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

summary wrote:

jiggymeister wrote:

Establish your threshold pace from a recent race.

Run as much easy mileage as healthily possible.

Build towards 2-3 sub threshold sessions per week. Sub threshold volume can be up to 10% of weekly volume.

Sessions should have short recoveries to keep the workout aerobic (i.e. 60 seconds for reps lasting 3 - 8 minutes, 30 seconds for shorter reps like 400's)

Eat, sleep, repeat.

I think it's actually:

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).

Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.

Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.

You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.

Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:

• 1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace
• 3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace

Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:

• 3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace
• 10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace

Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.

On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.

No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.

The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.

Sirpoc (the key poster in this thread) has shown over the course of several months that this method has consistently produced very impressive PBs. To be fair, he is an N of 1. I am personally giving this method a try and will report back.

Hope that summarizes it.

summary wrote:

I think it's actually:

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).

Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.

Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.

You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.

Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:

• 1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace
• 3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace

Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:

• 3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace
• 10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace

Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.

On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.

No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.

The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.

Sirpoc (the key poster in this thread) has shown over the course of several months that this method has consistently produced very impressive PBs. To be fair, he is an N of 1. I am personally giving this method a try and will report back.

Hope that summarizes it.

lux_ wrote:

summary wrote:

I think it's actually:

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).

Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.

Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.

You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.

Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:

• 1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace
• 3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace

Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:

• 3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace
• 10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace

Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.

On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.

No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.

The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.

Sirpoc (the key poster in this thread) has shown over the course of several months that this method has consistently produced very impressive PBs. To be fair, he is an N of 1. I am personally giving this method a try and will report back.

Hope that summarizes it.

Nice summary I think. One thing I will add, I think it's a known study of 2, as sirpoc and KI have both been similar (until added x factor session for KI). They are both around the same level now as hobby joggers, maybe KI a few seconds per km faster. Maybe this shows you where the limit is before you need to ice the cake , as KI has added in some risk now with the really heavy stuff. A caveat to that, is 99% of hobby joggers would love to get to where sirpoc and KI are, on purely singles running and living a normal life. My view is most of us could run for an hour a day like they do, if they wanted. The extra note, is whilst not everyone is doing this exactly as laid out on Strava, in the Norwegian singles group, there's many following the spirit of this approach and getting PBs. I'll admit I haven't checked their training logs, going way back, but the assumption from the chat on there is they have successfully Pb'd this way.

summary wrote:

jiggymeister wrote:

Establish your threshold pace from a recent race.

Run as much easy mileage as healthily possible.

Build towards 2-3 sub threshold sessions per week. Sub threshold volume can be up to 10% of weekly volume.

Sessions should have short recoveries to keep the workout aerobic (i.e. 60 seconds for reps lasting 3 - 8 minutes, 30 seconds for shorter reps like 400's)

Eat, sleep, repeat.

I think it's actually:

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).

Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.

Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.

You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.

Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:

• 1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace
• 3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace

Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:

• 3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace
• 10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace

Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.

On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.

No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.

The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.

Sirpoc (the key poster in this thread) has shown over the course of several months that this method has consistently produced very impressive PBs. To be fair, he is an N of 1. I am personally giving this method a try and will report back.

Hope that summarizes it.

jecht wrote:

lux_ wrote:

Nice summary I think. One thing I will add, I think it's a known study of 2, as sirpoc and KI have both been similar (until added x factor session for KI). They are both around the same level now as hobby joggers, maybe KI a few seconds per km faster. Maybe this shows you where the limit is before you need to ice the cake , as KI has added in some risk now with the really heavy stuff. A caveat to that, is 99% of hobby joggers would love to get to where sirpoc and KI are, on purely singles running and living a normal life. My view is most of us could run for an hour a day like they do, if they wanted. The extra note, is whilst not everyone is doing this exactly as laid out on Strava, in the Norwegian singles group, there's many following the spirit of this approach and getting PBs. I'll admit I haven't checked their training logs, going way back, but the assumption from the chat on there is they have successfully Pb'd this way.

What is the name of the Strava group? Thanks again!

Appreciate everyone's contributions. Even as a 21 5ker/44 10ker/1:37 13.1 and 3:20-3:25-ish 26.2er, this is very helpful.

How long should we be doing these in a block (8-10 weeks, for instance)? Do we then time-trial a distance and go from there?

roulette wheel wrote:

summary wrote:

I think it's actually:

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).

Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.

Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.

You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.

Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:

• 1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace
• 3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace

Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:

• 3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
• 6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace
• 10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace

Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.

On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.

No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.

The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.

Sirpoc (the key poster in this thread) has shown over the course of several months that this method has consistently produced very impressive PBs. To be fair, he is an N of 1. I am personally giving this method a try and will report back.

Hope that summarizes it.

Do we split the diff between 10M and 15k pace, or just use one or the other?