Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I had the same experience as you. Over the past month I did 5x6min at 3:50-3:55 pace, made 2 lactate readings, at the end of interval 2 and 5. In the 2nd interval my reading was usually around 4.5 mmol, and at the end it was 6-7 mmol.
I had the same results when measuring lactate at the start of the year, when I was at similar shape. But last Sunday, and at in January, I run 1:22 half. So based on those measurements, my lactate threshold should be in 7+ mmol range.
I used Lactate Edge device, which should be the most accurate hand held meter, based on research paper I read before deciding which device to buy.
Since I am new member cannot post links, but if you want to see the paper google:
"Reliability and Accuracy of Six Hand-Held Blood Lactate Analysers"
And the devices readings totally make sense. If I do a easy run, the lactate reading is around 1mmol, If I go marathon pace, it's generally around 2mmol.

Hi. Great thread. A listener of a podcast I'm on pointed it out. Really interesting stuff.

I was wondering if sirpoc84 is still here or as this thread is less active if anyone speaks to him? I would be interested in getting him on. We are doing a Hobby Jogger type episode and would be interested in having him on. I also think for fans of this thread as it seems very popular, could be a good opportunity for us to go through it from start to finish in a audio format for people to listen back to. It's rare to see something like this on LRC these days, feels like the old days!!

Please keep us updated. A podcast sounds like a great idea, if anyone does manage to get him on to recap the thread or whatever or put it in a listenable format, you have just gained a subscriber 👋

I can't be the only one who loves and bookmarked the thread but would love an easy listen from the horses mouth to have a start and finish point, especially on a hobby jogger level and his progress is inspiring. It goes off track time to time but at its heart this thread is epic.

Also if you aren't already in the Strava group guys, it's absolutely awesome 👍🏻

I would agree a podcast would be a good idea. I've listened to many pods on the Norwegian model. All of which are doubles and lactate meters. For 99% of listeners it's really just something the pros do. Whereas what sirpoc84 has done is really make one of the best starter guides for hobby joggers who are a bit stuck on progress, that I have seen, possibly ever. Someone suggested crib notes of something a couple of months back, but I'm actually all for the audio format where we can listen back to it a couple of times if needed. I'm sure there are others who read this thread properly, where light bulbs went off. So come on podders, someone pin him down and get him on. On another note, as someone who is in the Strava group, that's also lovely to see other people from this thread now having success with this approach. I've started to think about how I can apply this to my athletes for the coming season, so I will hopefully come back and report on that down the line!

I think this merits more research but you can't make the conclusion that there is no difference in time trial performance between the >MLSS vs <MLSS groups. The graph and statistical tests show that the confidence interval on the standardized mean difference is (-.54, .33.) This indicates the difference could be large (almost as large as the biggest effect detected in the cited studies) and that this meta-analysis is simply not powered to detect a difference in time trial performance.

Not detecting an effect is not the same as saying there is no effect.

He's definitely still around -- ill let him know you'd like to chat him up!

I'm a bit confused as to whether you are trying to attribute this to me, unless your post was a soliloquy. I didn't conclude anything, I'm not a statistician, I quoted the authors almost verbatim and then made clear the need for a larger sample size before confirmation. Jem Arnold, one of the authors said, and I quote directly "there was NO difference", the paper concluded "No significant difference related to the intensity of training was observed for Wpeak or TT performance". You should contact them if you want a retraction based on it possibly being a statistical artifact despite that the heterogeneity was low.

While we are being pedantic, can we adopt MMSS (maximal metabolic steady state) instead of MLSS as they did unless we are directly talking about a MLSS test? There is much more going on at threshold than lactate still being in a quasi-steady state, and it's past time we got away from the old-school notion of lactate acidosis leading to exercise termination.

What would this board do without all my papers and scientific information? :)

This Föhrenbach is an absolut lactate fetishist.

I prefer Billat, Olbrecht, Mader, and Heck. However, Fohrenbach is a good reference that states the obvious. If you test lactate under different conditions (e.g., treadmill at X% grade, grass, cinder, etc.), the values will likely differ. Gotta make sure you understand the context of the testing and try to control variables.

There is a better performance maker than MLSSw. It is Critical Velocity. No lactate meter needed to identify CV. And not to talk about the challenges/problems i indicated in the paper posted in #1129. CV offers a more practical solution. But it seems 10-20 years too early for this board and running sport in particular.

Yeah that sounds very familiar to what I'm experiencing. The only thing I'd caveat is thinking your threshold is 7 mmol. I still think we have a "normal" threshold at around 2.5 - 3.0 mmol, but we somehow can run at very elevated levels of lactate, ie 7+ mmol for a very long time without the lactate affecting our running abilities. I have no idea how or why that is, maybe it's because of a highly trained and adapted glycolytic system from mostly doing VO2 sessions (at least in my case), or maybe we have an extremely low aerobic threshold but a very high anaerobic threshold? Beats me.

(Exercise intensity is in km/h)

Image:i.ibb.co/948pfsy/lactate-curve.png

My understanding is that Attia is a maximalist. It seems to be that he would be the type of guy who would run "all in" every single day.

Having learned the benefits of zone 2, I think he is training at the top of zone 2 every single day. ¿Why training in the middle of zone 2 when top of zone 2 is better?. However, I doubt many pros train like that. Certainly not kenians. They modulate depending on feeling in zone 1- zone 2. Remember easy is easy, and slow should feel slow, whatever it takes. Apparently, Kipchoge does some training clearly in zone 1, with 3 quick LT workouts per week, and a bunch of zone 2.

Wow what a read! Just finished the thread. Thanks to sirpoc84 (and others), but your detail here is just phenomenal! It's like a really good book. I will add having just finished the final page over my early morning coffee, it would be really really good to find the right podcast to put this into an audio format. Maybe people reading know someone where this would fit? It needs someone asking the questions who does understand it as well. If with all that coming together, it could be like the Conversations about running pod where they talked about this method, but it was mainly for people already doing enough miles that doubles were inevitable. That was their most successful pod by far and I'm sure someone has the opportunity if he would do a pod to get a lot of streams based on this thread alone. But with this, it is pure Hobby Jogger territory as they say! Anyway, just thought I would endorse the audio format idea and say thanks again, I will join the Strava group now!

Once you take away all the CV talk and over complicated bits people have thrown in, easily the best training thread in LRC history.

And now you role the dice which calculated 'threshold' to use for your training? Awesome, 20k for the treadmill to provide such a labor result.
Stop that nonsense.

For those who use VDOT for estimating paces, I put this simple table together. It provides paces based on 5km time, using Daniels' VDOT system, for different "threshold" durations that have been discussed in the thread.

Also, while I can't provide any news on whether sirpoc will be accepting podcast invites, it appears BBC is reporting that the US, Israel and Palestine are all in contact with lexel, who has attributed the long void of stability in the region to a shortage of CV, and has called for its immediate implementation.

docs.google.com

VDOT Tempo Table

Link:docs.google.com/document/d/1JLTfAYcndX...

I just had a brief look, this is awesome. 60 min 1k/3:30 min pace and so on? Up to 3k repeats maybe longer? sirpoc84 on Strava is following this I think quite close? I rightly think his 3.2k for example somewhere near what you have 90- 120 min pace? 60 min looks roughly what he is doing 1k repeats at? You might know, I guess you speak to him?

Would be good to see him on podcast. He is very enthusiastic. I am guy who met him at Great south run again posting. I think at level he is, training is very unique, few doing it to this consistency or extreme but he explained to me verbally very well.

I can't say I didn't LOL at your Lexel comment Hard2find. Good to see you back in thread, I enjoyed your posts before. Scientific but birlte size. I don't have idea what these other dudes say. I hope Lexel takes it in good spirit intended. This thread is good fun as well as information, even if CV joke at his expense.

What do you mean "roll the dice" and labor result? That is the graph I was given by the people at the testing facility.
I was told my LT2 is around 2.9 mmol @ 5:05/km. I thought that was strange since during the test we got up to my 10K PR pace and I measured 7 mmol.

This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.

All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.

I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.