50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

This discussion is fascinating. I'm thinking about the skinny business. Aren't we oldsters supposed to be carrying a little more fan than the kids?

I started this year running 4-5 hours a week, now it's consistently 5.5-6+ hours and the way I'm feeling, I will probably add more. It would be a powerful incentive if I knew there was some gain to increasing to say 1 hour/day.

KCgeezer,

Theoretically just by increasing your mileage the capillarization is improved or the oxygen carrying capacity. So yes you would improve. My belief is that the older you get the more that is influenced by the law of diminishing returns. Of course so much of the limits are governed by genetics and motivation. I would think to reach your full potential your training time would need to approach 15-20 hours a week. That time would include supplemental training, for example core, weight training, and flexibility or other aerobic activity of biking or swimming.

Igy

KCgeezer,

My definition of training time:

Hard session: calf/achilles stretch, leg swings; 2 miles easy; 4 x 1,000m @ tempo pace/2:00 rest walk; mile easy = 1 hour, 45 minutes

Easy session: calf/achilles stetch, leg swings; 3 miles easy; core exercises; weight routine = 1 hour, 15 minutes

Once one approached 10 hours a week of training volume, I would be inclined to add double sessions.

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

KCgeezer,

Theoretically just by increasing your mileage the capillarization is improved or the oxygen carrying capacity. So yes you would improve. My belief is that the older you get the more that is influenced by the law of diminishing returns. Of course so much of the limits are governed by genetics and motivation. I would think to reach your full potential your training time would need to approach 15-20 hours a week. That time would include supplemental training, for example core, weight training, and flexibility or other aerobic activity of biking or swimming.

Igy

The primary physiological benefit to high volume training is in the increased size and number of mitochondria. There is little effect on the O2 transport system as that already carries more O2 than the cells can use.

Coach X wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

KCgeezer,

Theoretically just by increasing your mileage the capillarization is improved or the oxygen carrying capacity. So yes you would improve. My belief is that the older you get the more that is influenced by the law of diminishing returns. Of course so much of the limits are governed by genetics and motivation. I would think to reach your full potential your training time would need to approach 15-20 hours a week. That time would include supplemental training, for example core, weight training, and flexibility or other aerobic activity of biking or swimming.

Igy

The primary physiological benefit to high volume training is in the increased size and number of mitochondria. There is little effect on the O2 transport system as that already carries more O2 than the cells can use.

Good article on the science of the aging runner:

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20825431/the-science-of-aging-and-running/

Coach X wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

KCgeezer,

Theoretically just by increasing your mileage the capillarization is improved or the oxygen carrying capacity. So yes you would improve. My belief is that the older you get the more that is influenced by the law of diminishing returns. Of course so much of the limits are governed by genetics and motivation. I would think to reach your full potential your training time would need to approach 15-20 hours a week. That time would include supplemental training, for example core, weight training, and flexibility or other aerobic activity of biking or swimming.

Igy

The primary physiological benefit to high volume training is in the increased size and number of mitochondria. There is little effect on the O2 transport system as that already carries more O2 than the cells can use.

I agree that the mitochondrial changes are of the most value. Of course these require enhanced capillarization, so that is a necessary side effect.

I think the cardiovascular system benefits most from higher intensity exercise.

I'm loving this discussion even more!

So Igy, to answer your question, I supplement that with weights 2x/week, Wharton rope stretches, some static, and those funny prevention exercises like towel scrunch. When you include prerun lunges and swings that's an additional 3hrs/week. In other words, I'm close to 10hrs right now so 15hrs yep, sounds doable.

These links are all great - yours too, Charlie. Thanks to the anonymous poster for that 2009 piece. It's encouraging to hear McMillan, who I think of as a younger runners' coach, recommend more racing: "That's a great VO2 max workout in and of itself. The more I look at masters runners, the more I think you've got to keep racing. You almost go back to George Sheehan. He was the king of racing every weekend. It doesn't have to be 100 percent, and you can't do long. The more 5Ks and 8Ks you can do, the better. This is completely different from what you'd advise for a 23-year-old who wants to go to the Olympics."

Didn't someone else on this thread say not long ago they were doing, or advising, more races at less than 100%? I'm starting to see the light on this.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Once one approached 10 hours a week of training volume, I would be inclined to add double sessions.

Ha, this was exactly the question I was going to ask. So for instance, this evening when I have weights, if I preceded that with 30' on the treadmill and did that twice a week, that would be a quick hour added. All I know about doubles is do them easy, right?

oId guy wrote:

Coach X wrote:

The primary physiological benefit to high volume training is in the increased size and number of mitochondria. There is little effect on the O2 transport system as that already carries more O2 than the cells can use.

I agree that the mitochondrial changes are of the most value. Of course these require enhanced capillarization, so that is a necessary side effect.

I think the cardiovascular system benefits most from higher intensity exercise.

Bottom line if you increase your volume you are going to improve your fitness. Volume is the base of the training pyramid. What you can handle and how long you can sustain it is based on that foundation. If you do not have the genetics or the motivation to do so that is another issue. I stand by my overall thought that if you intend to reach your potential you need to plan on 15-20 hours a week training. Use of double training once you have passed about ten hours is the most efficient way to increase training volume.

That said, we are all an experiment of one. I am giving my experience of 53 years as an athlete and coach. I will let others argue what element of physiology stimulates the training effect. If someone has a better mouse trap use it. Do what works and if you can do more of it. Pretty simple really.

Igy

KCgeezer,

That would be my approach. Lace up the shoes for another 30-50 minutes. Like everything be judicious in adding volume.

Igy

KCgeezer wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Once one approached 10 hours a week of training volume, I would be inclined to add double sessions.

Ha, this was exactly the question I was going to ask. So for instance, this evening when I have weights, if I preceded that with 30' on the treadmill and did that twice a week, that would be a quick hour added. All I know about doubles is do them easy, right?

10 hours seems to me to be on the lighter side of that benchmark. I know hs kids that train 2+ hrs/day 6 days/wk all in singles and they handle it quite well.

Maybe this recommendation was for the older jogger?

Wish I had read this a year ago. Vo2Crazy crash and burn but I have seen the light 60 minutes at a snails pace everyday plus 2 hours of walking once I get healthy fit I will fly towards the sun bang out some hard stuff and do italloveragain

" As such, recent reports have shown that increasing the number of all-out efforts while reducing total training volume has a negative impact on skeletal muscle VEGF levels and ultimately capillarization (Gliemann et al. 2015). Specifically, it has been shown that the angiogenic potency of an interval-based training session is less than that of a continuous moderate-intensity training session (Høier et al. 2013). This has been shown over the past few years in various sports, including running, cycling, and soccer, and in both untrained, moderately trained, and elite athletes."

Syracuse wrote:

KCgeezer wrote:

Ha, this was exactly the question I was going to ask. So for instance, this evening when I have weights, if I preceded that with 30' on the treadmill and did that twice a week, that would be a quick hour added. All I know about doubles is do them easy, right?

10 hours seems to me to be on the lighter side of that benchmark. I know hs kids that train 2+ hrs/day 6 days/wk all in singles and they handle it quite well.

Maybe this recommendation was for the older jogger?

My response would be yes as this is a 50+ thread with many of us 60+. Ten hours would be just one day less than your example and these folks are three times older if not four times.

Igy

Coach X wrote:

The primary physiological benefit to high volume training is in the increased size and number of mitochondria. There is little effect on the O2 transport system as that already carries more O2 than the cells can use.

My last biology class was in tenth grade, but as I recall, the "transport system" is a two-way street. Besides oxygen delivery, carbon dioxide waste must be transported from the muscles to the lungs for exhalation.

It's the accumulation of wastes, not lack of oxygen, that largely causes that feeling of so-called "oxygen debt," correct? Likewise, when one holds his breath, the increasing urgency to breathe is caused by the brain sensing CO2 buildup in the blood, not a lack of oxygen.

All of which tells me that increased capillarization is a significant factor, even if the muscles are already being supplied plenty of oxygen. And, as old guy pointed out, the entire system is interrelated.

Yes, you and 'old guy' are correct. The increased capillarization is in response to the increase in mitochondria size and number. They wouldn't be much good without blood supply.

You are also correct about the archaic misnomer "oxygen debt." During such episodes there is no lack of oxygen, just an abundance of waste products (H+) that inhibits optimal muscle function.

No Syracuse, I’m still building my pyramid. And I’m old.

Charlie wrote:

Once I get healthy fit I will fly towards the sun bang out some hard stuff and do italloveragain

But you WON’T do it ALL over again ... riiight?

Hey if it’s any consolation at least one elite runner with lots of smart people around him went balls to the wall with HIIT too. Took him what, a year to come back? You’re in good company.

KCgeezer wrote:

No Syracuse, I’m still building my pyramid. And I’m old.

KCgeezer,

I believe you said you followed Daniels’ (really all you need) but if you wanted to getting into periodization further here is one of the better books.

Igy