San Millan defines Zone 2 as FatMax. "Fluffer" had me chuckle though.
I understand where you are coming from, but there is a world of difference between "tends to coincide w/ FATmax" and "zone 2 is FATmax". By his own admission, he has never publicly defined it, and it is his trade secret. Certainly if my fatmax was 40% of VO2max, as it is in some people, he wouldn't have me out there walking, right?
Not to get too far off the rails with this. LT1 and "the talk test", which equates to being near VT1, is often taken as the surrogate for ISM's "zone 2" by his acolytes and it is generally accepted as the end of the moderate exercise domain. My point is that we shouldn't get too caught up in doing our easy runs near it, especially if the rest of the runs will be subthreshold/tempo because they are fairly close in terms of intensity.
The issue becomes, "Well then, how easy is easy?" AFAIK, there are no real physiological anchor points below the first metabolic turn point we can use as a reference, zone 1 in a 5-zone model is 100% arbitrarily determined. It's somewhere at lactate baseline, below a ventilatory inflection point, etc. A percentage of a maximal anchor point like VO2max, HRmax, or Wmax doesn't tell us where our domains are in relation to it. % of CP or MLSS doesn't tell us where the first turn point is in relation to it. Maybe % of VT1, LT1, or GET could work, but I can't see that becoming too popular.
That leaves subjective descriptors like RPE which aren't really that helpful and all of this says nothing as to what is the optimal easy intensity.
Not everyone has a peak in the fat oxidation rate, but everyone has a cliff after which fat oxidation goes to zero. The top of the cliff is the top of Zone 2.
Coming off a pretty significant injury. How long would everyone say I need to focus on just base work until implementing this system? Thanks in advance!
Not everyone has a peak in the fat oxidation rate, but everyone has a cliff after which fat oxidation goes to zero. The top of the cliff is the top of Zone 2.
Check page 5 of this study, they have the fat oxidation curves of 43 recreational and elite skiers. The elites and some amateurs are still using fat at >90% VO2 peak, and the curve is very gentle. In both groups, the fatmax tends to be ~50% VO2 peak, which is well below what people are calling "zone 2", and besides, the consensus is that you don't have to train at fatmax to get better at utilizing fat, which seems a bit obvious.
I follow on Strava and it's legit. What I would highlight though is that he was a top tier cyclist on the UK TT scene. Thus he's probably got a hell of an aerobic base (plus talent) to work from (think capillaries/mitochondria/heart etc), so the improvement is likely much larger/quicker than the run of the mill athlete can expect. Similarly, I saw Tom Domoulin cracked out a 32 min 10k the other day, not bad for a cyclist!
In terms of rate of improvement, he's not alone benefiting from threshold interval focus, this year my hobby jogger partner (female mid 30s) has gone from 39 down to mid 36 for 10k (on a hot day!) typically averaging ~45-50 mpw, by doing threshold sessions twice per week, long run, plus strides with rare top end sessions sprinkled in, which sex-adjusted is probably a similar leap over a similar time frame. She does vary it a bit (eg has 1 rest day per week, sometimes makes the long run a progression, adds/replaces with the elliptical) but the two threshold sessions are the weekly staple. Can't persuade her to do 3 until she stops improving!
As an aside, whilst there appears no fast work in sirpoc's training it's probably worth remembering he races 5k every 3 or 4 weeks which is a decent max stimulus.
It may not work for everyone but this sort of training certainly works for some. If you're time limited and plateaued there's no harm in giving it a go. Personally I'd throw some strides in as well, but that's me.
This is an excellent post. Some key points and your friends progress sounds very interesting! Keep us updated. I am always happy to see and hear about success stories that fit into this kind of training. I'm one of many who I am sure have bookmarked this thread and am lurking having joined the Strava group, which is fantastic! It's so good to see a non toxic environment on there with the group. Fusio created and nice to have sirpoc there as well. Which is also why I know he's legit. I have also hassled him many times on there and he's happy to respond and even reply to my email.
You are totally correct, he was a top cyclist himself, winning many regional races with prize money + almost a bronze medal in national team championship before it appears, finishing 4th. But he stop cycling in 2017, did nothing until 2021 in January, went from a 24-25 5k to an 19 in about 15 months but plateau for a long time training like Daniels latest edition book. Then went back to what he did cycling which they call sweespot and performances rocket again after around 6-8 months of total plateau. I ask question and he's been mostly the same weight throughout, so this is just training gains. Like you said. Maybe once a month does a park run, which is some stimulation. But also a significant amount less by a large percentage of what other guys would do in terms of vo2 or speedwork , as nothing else is really faster than his 10 mile or hour pace, often quite a bit slower. Like nothing fast in training. That still really does blow mind.
It is funny that we so many pages in and people think this whole thread is based on BS or troll job . I think sometimes people can be absolutely scared by basics or they are doing too much. But it's not just sirpoc although I think he's fastest hobby jogger we have as reference other than KI. You read Strava group, see people's runs who also doing this and a lot are going as good as they ever have. Other users on Strava really inspire me also . I think 70 in group now.
Below attached is a very interesting and significant paper from San-Milan & Brooks George. Brooks is sure one of the best expert regarding mitochondria science on this planet.
The outcome of this paper is:
Our data show consistent and strong inverse correlations between blood lactate and FATox, as well as between FATox and CHOox, in all three groups studied.
That means if you leave the lactate baseline and train higher (faster), Fatox is supressed more and more. And that could mean that you should not leave the lactate baseline to have the best mitochondria Fat oxidation, and therefore stimulation.
I follow on Strava and it's legit. What I would highlight though is that he was a top tier cyclist on the UK TT scene. Thus he's probably got a hell of an aerobic base (plus talent) to work from (think capillaries/mitochondria/heart etc), so the improvement is likely much larger/quicker than the run of the mill athlete can expect. Similarly, I saw Tom Domoulin cracked out a 32 min 10k the other day, not bad for a cyclist!
In terms of rate of improvement, he's not alone benefiting from threshold interval focus, this year my hobby jogger partner (female mid 30s) has gone from 39 down to mid 36 for 10k (on a hot day!) typically averaging ~45-50 mpw, by doing threshold sessions twice per week, long run, plus strides with rare top end sessions sprinkled in, which sex-adjusted is probably a similar leap over a similar time frame. She does vary it a bit (eg has 1 rest day per week, sometimes makes the long run a progression, adds/replaces with the elliptical) but the two threshold sessions are the weekly staple. Can't persuade her to do 3 until she stops improving!
As an aside, whilst there appears no fast work in sirpoc's training it's probably worth remembering he races 5k every 3 or 4 weeks which is a decent max stimulus.
It may not work for everyone but this sort of training certainly works for some. If you're time limited and plateaued there's no harm in giving it a go. Personally I'd throw some strides in as well, but that's me.
That is excellent improvement! What does her threshold sessions look like?
Here are her last couple of weeks of training that are pretty typical. Whilst not identical to the methods in the thread there is a lot of similarities. Main points of differences are I) that she has a rest day every week and typically does two sessions, instead often adds some intensity to the long run knowing the following day is a rest day. ii) And she adds some extra speed work (typically stride/uphill strides and efforts). On top of this she does strength and/or core 2-3 times per week. Most of her philosophy comes from the SWAP podcast which really emphasises repeatability/consistency/threshold/ strides.
M : Rest T: 8x 3 mins uphill @sub-threshold (1 min downhill jog recovery) - nb. we have mountains which makes this possible. PM: 30 mins recovery elliptical W: 1hr z1 road run Th: 1hr Z1 + 5 x hill strides F: 4x2k @MP, 5x400 @cv (1 min). Pm 30 mins recovery elliptical Sat: 1hr Z2 Sun: 1hr 45 trail run - z1 30 mins of Z3 up climbs.
M: Rest T: 10x1k @hm (1 min), pm: 30 mins recovery elliptical W: 1hr z1 trail run. Thurs: 1hr z1 road run F: 1h 10 with 5k @ MP, then 10x30s hill efforts to finish, Pm: 30 mins recovery elliptical Sat: 1hr z1 road run Sun: 1hr 45 long run with 7k of sub threshold efforts during it.
Every so often she does a session like 10x (800@HM, 200@5k) with 90 s recovery to get a bit of faster work in. Additionally, every few months she does a 4 week base block of slightly volume (eg 60 mpw) of only easy running and strides.
Personally I think the difficulty with the triple singles threshold approach is potentially it's simplicity/monotony/relentlessness - this will suit certain personality types better than others. For others you may need to be creative to keep it engaging (playing with the distances of reps, for example threshold pyramid to work a range of paces) or as above moving some of the effort into the long run, or doing one of the sessions as a fartlek on the trails using climbs to do the sub threshold work. The key is finding that balance where it's something you can repeat week after week accruing lots of time in this sub threshold state through the week. For me that's easy running with 2 sub-threshold sessions a week plus a fartlek fun run containing sub threshold sections, plus the odd stride session. Also I need a rest day as I'm injury prone. I'm committed to this till my goal race in December so will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Below attached is a very interesting and significant paper from San-Milan & Brooks George. Brooks is sure one of the best expert regarding mitochondria science on this planet.
The outcome of this paper is:
Our data show consistent and strong inverse correlations between blood lactate and FATox, as well as between FATox and CHOox, in all three groups studied.
That means if you leave the lactate baseline and train higher (faster), Fatox is supressed more and more. And that could mean that you should not leave the lactate baseline to have the best mitochondria Fat oxidation, and therefore stimulation.
Just so we don't get too into the weeds on this, it's critical to point out that the assertion that training at lactate baseline will generally increase maximal fat oxidation ability more compared to higher intensity is very different from the assertion that there is a sweet spot inherently above lactate baseline that gives disproportionate adaptation compared to any other intensity, and that is what many physiologists are throwing cold water on in particular, not low intensity training as a whole or its ability to improve mitochondrial volume. It's called zone 2 training, not zone 1, and the additional intensity comes at the expense of duration and thus the total time spent utilizing fat near fatmax for the vast majority of people.
Either idea is contrary to a multitude of studies on HIIT showing that it can be very effective at improving fat oxidation ability, but if we are talking about changing our training solely because of this, then I think the minimum acceptable proof is at least an observational study where a low-intensity group is compared to a high-intensity group and not a study that is saying there is an inverse correlation between blood lactate and fat oxidation, which wasn't in dispute.
Dr Glenn McConell chats with Professor Stephen Seiler from the University of Agder in Norway. He is American who started his career in USA before moving to N...
First, there is a minimum intensity, below that you have no or almost no training effect. Otherwise sitting around would be a training. That intensity is typically above 50%VO2max give or take, which is around >60%HRmax for trained athletes. However, i fully agree with Seiler, that duration and intensity is interconnected. On the other side, the practical point is that a lot of hobby athletes train around 1h give or take (easy units). So we often assume that duration for easy running, without writing that down.
In a 5 zone model, zone 2 is typically between 60-70%HRmax (for trained athletes=my default assumption). And that is the zone were e.g. i have within 1h, exactly zero increase of my lactate level above lactate baseline level. This is btw also the intensity description of sirpoc, for his 50min easy runs. For me, it is also very save to assume that also sirpoc does not increase his lactate level above his baseline. This range uses very little fast twitch fibers, and so they can recover better. This way he can train again hard on the next day, 48h recovery time for the fast twitch fibers is good and he sets the next training impulse. That easy pace is the fundament here.
So at the end of the day an easy unit shall not be seen isolated.
As i discussed with sirpoc, a training unit just below 2mmol is not the same effort as a unit in zone 2 (see my above description), for the same duration. Putting that in the same zone as Sailer did, was a big mistake, as mentioned.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Putting aside Seiler's arbitrary delineation of his zones with ~2 mmol/L instead of 0.5 mmol/L over baseline, which has greater reliability, or baseline itself... If blood lactate doesn't actually impede fat oxidation based on lactate clamp studies and it is simply inversely correlated to fat oxidation because fatmax is generally ~50% VO2 peak or zone 1/5, then why does being over lactate baseline matter at all? Beyond that the more intense an exercise is, the longer the recovery, and the higher the proportion of type II fibers used- not something being questioned.
My take is that easy runs should be as intense as to not impede any other session or defeat their purpose, but that's as far as I will go without hard evidence. Maybe for you and your time schedule, that means training at lactate baseline, but I think we should be weary of any element of cargo cultism and confirmation bias just because a gentleman has found success. It seems a bit ridiculous to measure lactate at the end of an easy 1-hour session to make sure it's under an arbitrary amount when the actual boundary of the moderate-to-heavy domain is unclear and could be above baseline or even above LT1. Athletes know how they should do their easy runs, within reason, the important part of the system is what is happening near threshold because that is a hard boundary.
Coming off a pretty significant injury. How long would everyone say I need to focus on just base work until implementing this system? Thanks in advance!
In August I started running again after 10 years off, and with added home office weight.
Already in September I did a lot of sub threshold, had some worrying days with muscle strains but otherwise felt fine. 30km per week with 5-10km sub threshold. HM pace is fun and easy when broken up in intervals.
FIRST TIME I found a group of runners with emphasis on running slow days slow. Makes all the difference.
I think the key to remember, hobby jogger he may be, but sirpoc had been time-trialling for many years prior at a high level (despite his modesty). He has an aerobic engine, likely a very big one. Therefore, stimulating it in a slightly different way, running vs cycling will of course take for it to adapt. Clearly it now has, running economy etc has improved, therefore so have his times. Of course, he may start to plateau again soon, but until then, we should applaud him for sharing.
Will it work as well for the rest of us, maybe, maybe not, my take is the older you are, speed work gets more risky. If I was 18-30, I would never try this, but being a 49 year I am a firm believer...
Just a quick note that Peter Attia (who presumably got the right protocol from San Millán) measures his lactate every "zone 2" workout, and it confirms he is over 'baseline' much of the time, as high as 2.4 mmol/L. What else can you get from this noise? I don't know.
Interesting to see that Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen finally deviated from the plan and did his first x-factor session today: 20x300m hill sprints. (). Interested to see if this becomes a regular thing to take him to the next level, or if he just fancied a change as the brothers were doing it.
Seems like he switched the 3rd threshold session to hills. Maybe his VO2max is starting to be the limit? Reminded me of this metaphor from Philip Skiba's book:
The foundation is your basic strength and resilience. The floor is your endurance capacity, and the ceiling is the critical power/speed. The roofline is your VO2max. The top of the roof is your peak power output. Let’s imagine that your current marathon speed (usually very close to lactate threshold) is equal to your height. You walk into your house, and mark your height on the wall. With time, as you train, you grow taller. In the beginning, the whole house grows with you. However, what you will find is that with time you will begin to bump your head against the ceiling. You need to do some specific renovations on the house to raise the ceiling so that you can continue to grow. However, what you will quickly find is that you are squeezing the ceiling too close to the attic above. Eventually, you need to raise the attic as well.
Thoughts on parkruns (I would just solo TT 5k as not in UK) to re-adjust training paces when considering it’s effect on periodization? I am coming back from an injury my paces will be rapidly shifting, how often can I get away with a 5k TT without it being too detrimental to my training or are there other ways to easy update my paces since they will be changing quite rapidly.
Thoughts on parkruns (I would just solo TT 5k as not in UK) to re-adjust training paces when considering it’s effect on periodization? I am coming back from an injury my paces will be rapidly shifting, how often can I get away with a 5k TT without it being too detrimental to my training or are there other ways to easy update my paces since they will be changing quite rapidly.
Your training results are a clear give away what paces to use. A very experienced coach handle this perfectly. And it doesn't hurt if the coach is magic.... 😉😁🧙♂️
I thought about your question since you posted it, as my situation is similar (45 runs since beginning of August, after a decade of almost none).
My observation is: An intensity of 5k every month is irrelevant IF the easy runs are run easy. One member of the Strava group recently ran an easy run as low as 60%HFmax which caught my attention and is a shining 🌟 example for me.
So my answer is: You are worrying about the wrong aspect. Rather: Embrace the "group spirit" of this thread and focus on the majority of sessions and their efforts : The easy run .
I re-read this thread 2 times with the focus on the shared knowledge about
- easy runs
- cautious addition of mileage
Following this guidance finally brings me close to the 50th session, after several failed attempts in the last years to pick up running again (got injured real quick when I tried).
I could easily handle a 5k every month, but don't need it to determine my paces: Training results are obvious and I adjust (conservatively) by training results.
I ran one 5000m, more a reward than an enlightening about paces. And I am looking forward to a cross-country run and it's atmosphere. Pinning a bib, hooray!
But training paces: I don't need the race for that.
When I head out for an easy run I have this very conscious thought: Let's 🚫 not use any fiber that shall fast-twitch tomorrow! ;) And I go to the lake where the joggers are and trail one of them (with a distance).
I haven't dipped into this thread for a while. With regards to how often to do a 5k park run, TT or whatever. I think my average still sits at maybe 4-5 weeks. My reasoning being:
1. It's fun.
2. Gives me a reason to train. I don't enter many proper races, so it keeps my motivation higher on a lot of these boring training runs.
3. It's really easy for me to then know where I'm at, then adjust my paces without having to buy more lactate strips. I've spot tested this approach now and again to lactate, and for me, I'm confident in its accuracy.
4. It does give me a small amount of "harder" work. I have gone about 10 weeks with no racing I think before, or something long like that. My improvement in that period was the same. So how much this helps is totally up for debate.
Note, the reverse of point 3 applies here, my training tells me almost certainly when I'm going good and 90% of the time translates into a PB in the 5k. So I guess I'm picking when I run my 5ks, it tends to be when I feel I have stepped it up, which in turn happens to be every 4-5 weeks. Final note, now the winter is here (like last year) I'll probably race park run less.
I'm glad people are still finding a good thread useful, I'll try to keep and eye on it a bit more. Although the Strava group is pretty busy, not everyone I am guessing is on there. I'm still hilariously baffled that anyone would find my Strava interesting. It's nice to have other runners that I follow now though, not just cyclists. Maybe I'll actually be a runner first and cyclist second, soon. Who'd have thought it , ha ha .
Cool story thanks and congrats to Sirpoc for his massive result, he has more ahead.
As for myself, I did a half marathon yesterday in 1:21:3X, which was about a 3 minute PB.
A bit more context:
Most of my quality sessions running was slower than my eventual race pace. Longest reps (on treadmill) were 3 km long. Longest reps outdoors were 1.6 km long. My sub threshold paces were closer to 4:00/km than they were to 3:50/km.
I still feel I have underperformed because I averaged 170 bpm which is <84% of Max HR for me.
Thoughts on parkruns (I would just solo TT 5k as not in UK) to re-adjust training paces when considering it’s effect on periodization? I am coming back from an injury my paces will be rapidly shifting, how often can I get away with a 5k TT without it being too detrimental to my training or are there other ways to easy update my paces since they will be changing quite rapidly.
Your training results are a clear give away what paces to use. A very experienced coach handle this perfectly. And it doesn't hurt if the coach is magic.... 😉😁🧙♂️
Very experienced? You don't need to be a very experienced coach to use Daniels' tables, and that's all you do.
Just do a magic trick and disappear from this thread.
Most of my quality sessions running was slower than my eventual race pace. Longest reps (on treadmill) were 3 km long. Longest reps outdoors were 1.6 km long. My sub threshold paces were closer to 4:00/km than they were to 3:50/km.
I still feel I have underperformed because I averaged 170 bpm which is <84% of Max HR for me.
The approach works.
It works but you underperformed? That doesn't make sense. You likely couldn't get to the pace you need to be because you have never practiced it. You've totally shot yourself in the foot and it's working thr opposite you think it is.
sirpoc84 ran 56 for 10. Who cares? It's not exactly fast is it? If he had trained 7 hours a week properly then he would be faster no doubt.
This thread is so bizarre. Everyone congratulations to each other for training and then running bad. Just goes to show that runners are so soft these days they can't hurt in races because they can't train properly.
