That's interesting. Do you mind sharing your data?
Why not. However, it is cycling and also not the training form sirpoc described.
Context: around 8h/week endurance training, 2xQ/week (total 90-120min, 10-20min intervals); all Q sessions in the range of 2.5 - 3.0mmol/L -> basically zero improvement
4. The ability to do sprint/strength work is likely influenced somewhat by muscle fiber composition, where I suspect those with slightly more fast-twitch fibers can deal with more of this.
5. Similar to the above point 4 : I suspect that runners with a higher fast-twitch fiber composition may need a more balanced approach and more conventional training including more multi-tier training. There is some unpublished work by professor Brodal where they looked at capillarization on students – that were not runners. They started a running program to see the capillary development, mostly consisting of long endurance runs. Though, when also looking at the students that did not finish the study, an overwhelming number of these had a higher number of fast-twitch fibers in the biopsies – an indication that these may not have responded to the training, and lost interest on the way. At least this is an interesting area to look into, not explored much.
On the other hand, I’ve seen many people say the muscle fiber types don’t really matter that much. I’m not sure which one to believe.
On the other hand, I’ve seen many people say the muscle fiber types don’t really matter that much. I’m not sure which one to believe.
Muscle fiber types matters.
I was specially suprised that there was not the sligtest adaptation in the area of 2.5-3.0mmol. I have no explanation.
The idea was to bring VLamax (ability to produce lactate) down with this training. VLamax pulls on the left side and VO2max on the right side of the lactate curve, based on theory. So i expected a right shift of the lactate curve in this area. Not so.
In the sport literature the quality sessions should land between 3-5mmol (individual). I already do now my quality sessions in the area of 3.5 to 5mmol. Lets see how that works. Promising so far.
(cycling is now my cross-sport as i have plantar fking itis since 6 month now)
This thread inspired me to rent a lactate meter (lactate pro2) with 25 strips and run some tests on myself. I found a lot of sample protocols and settled on running 3 laps (1200m) at 6-8 paces depending on how it goes. I tried testing at home and got some valid looking measurements for 'at rest' lactate. But one thing I couldn't find online is how fast should the measurement be done after running 3 laps? No matter how I word my google request, the results are talking about lactate clearance rate in different context. Getting a reliable reading is not that easy and if we're talking heart rate, it is definitely going to be much lower by the time I get enough blood on the test strip.
This thread inspired me to rent a lactate meter (lactate pro2) with 25 strips and run some tests on myself. I found a lot of sample protocols and settled on running 3 laps (1200m) at 6-8 paces depending on how it goes. I tried testing at home and got some valid looking measurements for 'at rest' lactate. But one thing I couldn't find online is how fast should the measurement be done after running 3 laps? No matter how I word my google request, the results are talking about lactate clearance rate in different context. Getting a reliable reading is not that easy and if we're talking heart rate, it is definitely going to be much lower by the time I get enough blood on the test strip.
When you finish the rep, walk straight over to your meter and try to test as soon as you can. Go on YouTube and search for videos of Kristian Blummenfelt and Gustav Iden training. Their coach will often take blood lactate readings during their workouts. He seems pretty chill about it. There is a sweat elite workout with them doing threshold reps on the road that should given you a good idea.
Erm, I know exactly what I am doing. I'm following the latest fad in training.
Now why am I doing that? It is a method of determining 'threshold' intensity which I haven't yet tried. I know from a decade of experience as a hobbyjogger that 'run more miles overall and as much as possible at threshold' is something I respond well to. But the intensity has to be right. For example, 'easy interval method' which I stumbled upon on this board actually made me a tiny bit slower and a great bit grumpier, most likely reason – incorrect 'threshold'. I used pace tables, HR, Stryd footpod, why not try lactate? Ok, one reason it is expensive and messy, but I can afford that for my hobby.
Being the latest fad is also a big plus for me: lots of people to discuss it with, and open field for experiments on myself (as opposed to blindly following a book).
Erm, I know exactly what I am doing. I'm following the latest fad in training.
Now why am I doing that? It is a method of determining 'threshold' intensity which I haven't yet tried. I know from a decade of experience as a hobbyjogger that 'run more miles overall and as much as possible at threshold' is something I respond well to. But the intensity has to be right. For example, 'easy interval method' which I stumbled upon on this board actually made me a tiny bit slower and a great bit grumpier, most likely reason – incorrect 'threshold'. I used pace tables, HR, Stryd footpod, why not try lactate? Ok, one reason it is expensive and messy, but I can afford that for my hobby.
Being the latest fad is also a big plus for me: lots of people to discuss it with, and open field for experiments on myself (as opposed to blindly following a book).
Hey, don't listen to the fools. I own a lactate meter and other toys. It's fun to test.
What I do is set up a table in the middle of the track (since it's empty on the weekends) and have my alcohol, towels, lactate meter, etc. ready so that way when I get close to my sample time, I can veer into the center of the track to end the rep at the table.
First, I'll wipe my hand, apply alcohol, fan dry and then insert the lactate sample strip into the meter. While the meter is turning on, I'll lancet my finger and get a good drop of blood...then wipe the first drop away with a clean towel. I'll collect the sample on the second drop of blood. Make sure your finger is DRY. If the blood drop runs like a broken egg yolk, clean off your finger better. All in all, this should take about 30 seconds and the results comes 13 seconds later (or however long your meter takes).
Rinse and repeat.
This weekend I'm doing two track workouts:
Saturday: 3 minute and 12 minute time trials. Gives me CP/CV and W'/D', and VO2 max estimate from Cooper test equation. I get two suprathreshold lactate values from the time trails.
Sunday: Step test with 4 subthreshold paces for 10 minutes each. Gives me four subthreshold lactate values...ideally I'll see LT1 and LT2.
This thread seems to have slowed, prob due to Strava group.
But for anyone interested, sirpoc just ran 56:12 for 10 miles to finish inside the top 100 overall in the Great South run in the Uk, I believe this is a big event, 25k+?. According to Strava, looks like he set his 10k and 5k pb in the process. Looking back through the last few weeks, looks like almost no taper other than back to back easy days in the last 48 hours. He posts on Strava group a lot but thought anyone not on there might find this interesting, seems he is still hugely progressing.
from you original monster post you gave Lacate.com as a reference source. I was broswing the site and double whammy turns up. It seems to do an about face in the face of Lydirian base training.http://www.lactate.com/Specialto...
This thread seems to have slowed, prob due to Strava group.
But for anyone interested, sirpoc just ran 56:12 for 10 miles to finish inside the top 100 overall in the Great South run in the Uk, I believe this is a big event, 25k+?. According to Strava, looks like he set his 10k and 5k pb in the process. Looking back through the last few weeks, looks like almost no taper other than back to back easy days in the last 48 hours. He posts on Strava group a lot but thought anyone not on there might find this interesting, seems he is still hugely progressing.
Amazing performance. Incredible progression from a 19:00 5k not too long ago. Remember that sirpoc started doing his sub-thresholds at 6:00 pace and the pace progresses naturally as he got fitter. Train where you are at. Be patient. You will see jumps eventually but it will take months.
I reckon sirpoc is in close to 16:00 5k shape if he can run mid-5:30s for 10 miles.
This thread seems to have slowed, prob due to Strava group.
But for anyone interested, sirpoc just ran 56:12 for 10 miles to finish inside the top 100 overall in the Great South run in the Uk, I believe this is a big event, 25k+?. According to Strava, looks like he set his 10k and 5k pb in the process. Looking back through the last few weeks, looks like almost no taper other than back to back easy days in the last 48 hours. He posts on Strava group a lot but thought anyone not on there might find this interesting, seems he is still hugely progressing.
Thanks for this. I just checked out Strava group now and added sirpoc. This thread been in my bookmark a while. Cool to me that the guy who contributed so much still making big strides. Agree with poster above , sub 16 very realistic in a few months based off a very low 56 for 10 miles. From looking at Strava, he just does same over and over and over, no magic, just hard work and clearly he understands what will make someone faster and just sticks to it.
I did the Great South Run as well yesterday, was fortunate enough to bump into sirpoc at the end of the race. Really friendly guy and if he reads this, thanks for the chat. I hope you didn't think I was stalking you! But I knew the name and the names are on the bibs and there's very likely only to be one guy with the same name with the fun runner bib on and finishing so quick! Very knowledgeable for someone so new to running. I hope if he didn't mind me picking his brains whilst he was waiting for friends. I had a pretty bad race and probably now I'm going to do a block of this training. He mentioned Jiggymeister who committed to a 26 week block? Also that jig was racing but didn't know yet how he had did? Does anyone else know how jiggy went? I think he was more nervous about Jiggy race than his own was the impression I got. Maybe the sign of a coach ?
One thing I will say as addition is I think his time could have been faster. I was in the elite/club runners group but he was in with the masses. He must have overtaken hundreds and hundreds of runners to get up near the front with the top 100 guys or so. He seemed a bit just OK with his time, so maybe he expected more? Also he does sometimes check this thread, but often is more active in Strava group and a WhatsApp group. He seemed very miffed and baffled that anyone could be interested in his Strava.
Anyway this thread has maybe slowed down but thought I might add that. So often we read on these forums about how guys turn out to be douchbags or whatever , but I just thought I would share this and also add my final congrats to him on a time at this point 99% of guys would kill for. One extra thing, this was my first Great South run. I would guess it's part of the big 3-4 UK mass events? I have done a lot of these events around the world , it has to be up there with the best. A shame they don't just make it a half marathon. I find these UK events always really well organised and feel special.
Please consider to multiply the distance by factor 4 and the rest time by factor 2-3 for converting from swimming workouts to running workouts. It is fascinating: this guy was 20 years ahead of the running mainstream and few such as some Norwegians listened ;)
I do not want to go offtopic in this thread. This should be a contribution why IMO Sirpoc's training works for him. Very nice to learn his latest success. Smart person and great hobby athlete. Kudos from my side.