That's not what I was arguing, we all like to pass the time discussing these things. It's just that to be the devil's advocate in a discussion about doping in cycling only singles one out as being clueless about the topic. If an acquaintance told me that he ran a near 4min mile in school I would know immediately that he wasn't a runner and never had been. It's just awkward you know? I mean why lie about something so obvious? I don't know, the two ideas are pretty similar.
Presmustache.
You're clearly a massive Lance fanboy.
You're only saying it doesn't matter to you now because you realise that you were wrong and that he's a dirty cheating, lying, embezzleing, filthbag of a person. You think his disgrace reflects badly on you.
You could just admit that you were taken in by his lies, but now you realise the truth.
Did I call it or did I call it?
i wasn't trying to pass myself off as an expert, or a know-it-all(you). i'm discussing a doping/legal issue in cycling on a running forum(hello!?), not on a cycling/legal forum(hello!?. i don't understand what it so weird about that to you, or how me discussing it is like somebody lying about running a 4 minute mile..
Haha - the guy isn't a filthbag man. C'mon. He was the greatest cyclist of his generation. The cover up and contortions he has used to evade blame are pretty bad though. The way his posse has tried to ruin those that point the finger in his direction is some selfish shit for a champion to engage in and condone. His career and title were no lie though, just the idea that he used more moral methods when everyone else did not.
trollism wrote:
What they see is an American (force for good) beating lots of Europeans (forces of evil).
This is why they can't accept that he doped for the majority of his career, and for anyone with an ounce of sense can see this.
And also why anyone accusing Teg, Ritz, and Solinsky of doping is a disturbed idiot as far as this forum is concerned.
EZ10Miler wrote:
Look there are a few jock sniffers that won't believe LA doped until he rides across the finish line with a syringe stuck in his arm with a big lable "EPO" on it, or if the big liar himself were to come out and admit it.
They are like a religion's True Believers.. logic and thought play no part of their defense of LA.
A lot of us belong to the religion of I believe Solinsky is clean. What's the difference?
Vas-t'y frotte wrote:
Who is this rider? He must not be terribly upset about the injustice since he has apparently only spoken to you about it.
Go to Velo News, his name is mentioned.
They were right about the end coming today, but it is only the end for Lance.
Finding out Lance Doped was like finding out Santa is not real. You beleived adamently that what you thought was true, then after the evidence is put forth, you thought, "how stupid was I to beleive the lies". I was a big fan of Lance. I read "Its not about the bike"; I watched the TDF because of him; I had a poster on my dorm room wall and tapped it like the Notre Dame football player's "play like a champion" every morning before my runs at 6:30. The news that has been released in the past few years is damning to Lance and difficult for me swallow. For so long I was a fan and a supporter and now I consider him to be in the ranks of Arod, Mcguire and all the other dopers.
A very interesting thing has ben happening; as more and more people that were close to Lance (i.e., teammates) confess to doping and having first-hand experiece that Lance also did, Lance's defense increasingly migrates from 'I have never doped. Period.' to 'I have never tested positive for doping. Period.' and 'my accusers are not credible'. It's all about creating reasonable doubt despite a massive mountain of circumstantial evidence against him. It's the tactic of an attorney representing OJ Simpson or other obvious guilty person. Lance is hedging his statements now to give himself wiggle room if ever put under oath.
Lance is clean in the same way that wrestling is a genuine athletic contest without a predetermined outcome. Anyone believing otherwise has fairly weak deductive and inference skills and is living a lie themselves. The rapture is coming today, too, right?
That said, Lance crushed others that clearly doped and was a pretty dominating athlete even before his doping habits. He's an egomaniac hiding behind his foundation for sure. But I confess to following him. I find Lance interesting and do admire him on some levels. He's a fierce competitor and a great leader in various ways and has done some genuine good via LAF and getting Americans into cycling. He also nails hot chicks regularly and has been successful in not marrying his latest baby momma. Points for that.
Lance doped in a pervasive culture of doping. Most anyone else would have done the same if the payoff was fame and fortune. So let's not get too self-righteous. Don't hate him because he still happened to be better than all of the other cheaters. If you hate him for anything, have it be that he's a liar and a prick.
Lancebag wrote:
Most anyone else would have done the same if the payoff was fame and fortune. So let's not get too self-righteous.
I disagree, and think this is the easy way for people to sound a little neutral about an obviously guilty, lying scumbag who has long been considered an American hero.
I bet there are at least as many guys who could have been Tour riders but who refused to get sucked in to the culture of doping and therefore couldn't make it than there are dopers.
Lance clearly is a great athlete, but he's a liar and stole a lot of money from clean competitors.
Perhaps, but it's easy to say until that money and fame are a realistic option and not hypothetical. And by the way, I'm talking about the top % of riders that are already Tour-worthy. The difference between the top and bottom of the peleton is maybe just a few % points.
I am a former professional cyclist. I competed briefly in Europe for a pro-continental team. I wasn't very good but I did see a lot of clean athletes trying to break through and I just want to put to rest this idea that lance doped in a culture of doping so it was a level playing field.
YES it was a culture of doping and YES if all his TDF results were nullified his successor would almost certainly also be doped.
1) However, there are hundreds of clean pro cyclists who, skipped college to pursue a dream, also biked 4-6 hours day, and earned 15-25k a year for a relatively short period.
I have friends who train like mad men and are unemployed or drawing a meager wage because doped riders jump past them and suck up money.
If lance et al. had not doped there would have been CLEAN athletes who would have extended their careers and increased their wages. They wouldnt have won the tour de France but they would have been more competitive in races. Velonews has a report on a rider right now who quit postal because he decided he did not want to do drugs and felt he had no other choice.
2) Dopers suck money out of the sport. Teams fold and clean cyclists, team managers, mechanics, and soigneurs lose their jobs when these scandals come out. For every doping scandal there is a financial fall out that hurts people that are just trying to make a decent living working in a sport they are passionate about. When Floyd Landis's scandal broke, I was actively seeking a pro contract, and saw first hand how the scandal had a ripple effect that went all the way down to the grass roots of the sport. MOney that would have been there for young developing cyclists disappeared.
3) Lance has not just denied doping he has vindictively destroyed careers, smeared people in the name of extending lies. He does not deserve a break in any way. He seems to have a Godfather morality where anyone who breaks away from the "family" deserves to be destroyed.
Take the example of Simeoni, when Lance chased down that breakaway. I cannot even begin to express how crucial those early breaks are in the TDF for a riders career. Getting in the early break, something that is never shown on TV, is incredibly difficult on so many levels. When a rider gets in a break, on a TDF stage where the GC teams are trying to let a break go, that is their BIG shot. Their Eminem lose yourself moment. When Lance chased down Simeoni he was essentially destroying a man's once a year opportunity and directly harming his ability to put food on his kids table all because he decided to start telling the truth. He also directly affected everyone else in that breakaway who wasn't even involved. When Simeoni dropped out of the breakaway so Telekom would stop chasing it was an incredibly honorable thing to do where he sacrificed this career changing opportunity so that his breakaway companions could have a shot at a life changing TDF stage win.
He has dragged Betsy Andreu's name through the mud all because she decided not to be a wife who accepts immorality. She decided not to silently accept a culture of doping. She's not even a cyclist but Lance has publicly trashed her name and drug her through the mud because she told the truth.
He has trashed journalists, former employees, newspapers et al. who have only told the truth.
He lied in order to get a multi million dollar bonus from a company that had insured his bonus for winning the the TDF. He cost that company millions of dollars in legal fees and the pay out and don't think that didn't cost honest people jobs.
Lance Armstrong is an amazing athlete, yes. But the man has done things that are reprehensible to continue lying. Lets not make excuses for him because he's a great athlete.
The race in question (1985 Oak Harbor Invitational) happened in spring of 1985, but to set the scene properly, we need to go back a year to 1984. Scott Fry and I were both juniors; he at the then AA school of Sandusky Perkins, and me at the then AAA school Perrysburg; so we didn't race each other often (as if my getting killed by him would be racing him). Scott ran 9:11 that day to win the 3200. His teammate came in second in 9:44. I came in third.
On to 1985. Scott's teammate is now graduated, and Scott runs the 1600 in 4:10 to win. I come in second. Scott then runs the 800 in his LIFETIME PR of 1:57 to win. I did not run the open 800.
It's now time for the 3200. I hadn't lost a 3200 all season, but I was prepared to do so today as I am always realistic. The weather that evening was absolutely perfect for running. We toe the line. Scott jumps the gun and is DQ'd. He is so pissed he immediately jumps the fence and reportedly runs through the streets of Oak Harbor, and many disgruntled fans boo and start to leave as the meet is just about over. I win the race by a fair margin to chants of "YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK"! My coach turns to the crowd and says, "Come On, he's just a kid!" Some fat guy with a beverage in his hand yells, "Well, he SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSS!", and I swear he spilled a little bit when he said that.
I still have the little medal hanging off the blue ribbon today. It SHOULD belong to one Scott Fry.
Flapgole wrote:
The race in question (1985 Oak Harbor Invitational) happened in spring of 1985, but to set the scene properly, we need to go back a year to 1984. Scott Fry and I were both juniors; he at the then AA school of Sandusky Perkins, and me at the then AAA school Perrysburg; so we didn't race each other often (as if my getting killed by him would be racing him). Scott ran 9:11 that day to win the 3200. His teammate came in second in 9:44. I came in third.
On to 1985. Scott's teammate is now graduated, and Scott runs the 1600 in 4:10 to win. I come in second. Scott then runs the 800 in his LIFETIME PR of 1:57 to win. I did not run the open 800.
It's now time for the 3200. I hadn't lost a 3200 all season, but I was prepared to do so today as I am always realistic. The weather that evening was absolutely perfect for running. We toe the line. Scott jumps the gun and is DQ'd. He is so pissed he immediately jumps the fence and reportedly runs through the streets of Oak Harbor, and many disgruntled fans boo and start to leave as the meet is just about over. I win the race by a fair margin to chants of "YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK"! My coach turns to the crowd and says, "Come On, he's just a kid!" Some fat guy with a beverage in his hand yells, "Well, he SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSS!", and I swear he spilled a little bit when he said that.
I still have the little medal hanging off the blue ribbon today. It SHOULD belong to one Scott Fry.
WTF??? Seriously, WTF?
I certainly think that part of his sentence should involve getting punched in the face by Fillipo Simeoni.
Just more evidence that cyclists sucks.
Amiright guys?
Huh??? wrote:
Flapgole wrote:The race in question (1985 Oak Harbor Invitational) happened in spring of 1985, but to set the scene properly, we need to go back a year to 1984. Scott Fry and I were both juniors; he at the then AA school of Sandusky Perkins, and me at the then AAA school Perrysburg; so we didn't race each other often (as if my getting killed by him would be racing him). Scott ran 9:11 that day to win the 3200. His teammate came in second in 9:44. I came in third.
On to 1985. Scott's teammate is now graduated, and Scott runs the 1600 in 4:10 to win. I come in second. Scott then runs the 800 in his LIFETIME PR of 1:57 to win. I did not run the open 800.
It's now time for the 3200. I hadn't lost a 3200 all season, but I was prepared to do so today as I am always realistic. The weather that evening was absolutely perfect for running. We toe the line. Scott jumps the gun and is DQ'd. He is so pissed he immediately jumps the fence and reportedly runs through the streets of Oak Harbor, and many disgruntled fans boo and start to leave as the meet is just about over. I win the race by a fair margin to chants of "YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK"! My coach turns to the crowd and says, "Come On, he's just a kid!" Some fat guy with a beverage in his hand yells, "Well, he SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSS!", and I swear he spilled a little bit when he said that.
I still have the little medal hanging off the blue ribbon today. It SHOULD belong to one Scott Fry.
WTF??? Seriously, WTF?
Wasn't me, brother. Check the username again. Wejo, if I lie, BAN ME FOR LIFE!
doping "culture" wrote:
I am a former professional cyclist. I competed briefly in Europe for a pro-continental team. I wasn't very good but I did see a lot of clean athletes trying to break through and I just want to put to rest this idea that lance doped in a culture of doping so it was a level playing field.
YES it was a culture of doping and YES if all his TDF results were nullified his successor would almost certainly also be doped.
1) However, there are hundreds of clean pro cyclists who, skipped college to pursue a dream, also biked 4-6 hours day, and earned 15-25k a year for a relatively short period.
I have friends who train like mad men and are unemployed or drawing a meager wage because doped riders jump past them and suck up money.
If lance et al. had not doped there would have been CLEAN athletes who would have extended their careers and increased their wages. They wouldnt have won the tour de France but they would have been more competitive in races. Velonews has a report on a rider right now who quit postal because he decided he did not want to do drugs and felt he had no other choice.
2) Dopers suck money out of the sport. Teams fold and clean cyclists, team managers, mechanics, and soigneurs lose their jobs when these scandals come out. For every doping scandal there is a financial fall out that hurts people that are just trying to make a decent living working in a sport they are passionate about. When Floyd Landis's scandal broke, I was actively seeking a pro contract, and saw first hand how the scandal had a ripple effect that went all the way down to the grass roots of the sport. MOney that would have been there for young developing cyclists disappeared.
3) Lance has not just denied doping he has vindictively destroyed careers, smeared people in the name of extending lies. He does not deserve a break in any way. He seems to have a Godfather morality where anyone who breaks away from the "family" deserves to be destroyed.
Take the example of Simeoni, when Lance chased down that breakaway. I cannot even begin to express how crucial those early breaks are in the TDF for a riders career. Getting in the early break, something that is never shown on TV, is incredibly difficult on so many levels. When a rider gets in a break, on a TDF stage where the GC teams are trying to let a break go, that is their BIG shot. Their Eminem lose yourself moment. When Lance chased down Simeoni he was essentially destroying a man's once a year opportunity and directly harming his ability to put food on his kids table all because he decided to start telling the truth. He also directly affected everyone else in that breakaway who wasn't even involved. When Simeoni dropped out of the breakaway so Telekom would stop chasing it was an incredibly honorable thing to do where he sacrificed this career changing opportunity so that his breakaway companions could have a shot at a life changing TDF stage win.
He has dragged Betsy Andreu's name through the mud all because she decided not to be a wife who accepts immorality. She decided not to silently accept a culture of doping. She's not even a cyclist but Lance has publicly trashed her name and drug her through the mud because she told the truth.
He has trashed journalists, former employees, newspapers et al. who have only told the truth.
He lied in order to get a multi million dollar bonus from a company that had insured his bonus for winning the the TDF. He cost that company millions of dollars in legal fees and the pay out and don't think that didn't cost honest people jobs.
Lance Armstrong is an amazing athlete, yes. But the man has done things that are reprehensible to continue lying. Lets not make excuses for him because he's a great athlete.
This is a great post
Great post! You are right, people who claim that Lance is not worth pursuing, or that he would have won anyway and that he was just leveling the playing field by using PED's...have no idea what they are talking about.
He has stolen untold mounts of money and credibility from other teams, individual riders, and even those outside of the sport. His philanthropy, while it has a great purpose, does not undo his crimes against his sport and the clean riders that try to survive within it.