Just goes to show how dumb it is to put this on the school kids to take a stand and not compete. Look at the consequences of basic protest!
The adults - administrators, sporting bodies and government - need to solve this issue.
The original title has been changed to make it more accurate. The original title was: Middle schoolers who protested trans athlete in girls shotput competition banned from future competitions.
-
32
-
4:20 is not that fast wrote:
law102 wrote:
The middle school track meet controversy may go to the Supreme Court.
The middle school girls who stepped out of the ring instead of throwing the shot against a biological male have now been banned from future competitions.
How is that even constitutional? I'm trying to think of analogies. But the school district is essentially saying they can ban kids who don't try their hardest in a sport from competing again?
I can see how the track coach might have rules or whatnot but can a school district restrict kids from not trying their hardest from competing again?
Don't kids have a right to compete? Say I'm a basketball player and I don't like my coach. And I say "I'm just going to walk on the court" when put in the game. I do that. The coach has a right to not put me in the game because I'm not competitive but I don't think the school district has a right to say I can't play in another game again because they don't like my attitude.
What am I missing?
Sorry, but the school district has the right to suspend an athlete. If there’s a rule, it has to be enforceable. It would be a mess, if athletes get to decide which rules apply to them.
Sorry, which law school did you go to? The school district as a government body is limited by the Constitution and cannot suspend students willy nilly, especially by curtailing their Constitutional rights.
33 -
The boycott is mean spirited. This girl has been on puberty blockers since she was 10 or 11. This means under world athletics rules, she would be eligible to compete as a girl. She has little or no advantage over the other girls. Girls like her should be allowed to transition and fit in. You right wingers stop being binary. Real life is not binary. We have to balance between the mental health of an actual trans girl vs fairness and allowing a girl who has been on puberty blockers since age 11 is perfectly appropriate.
221 -
Sir s Lee wrote:
Pay The Cost To Be The Boss wrote:
In the first place, these kids are being used as proxies by their parents.
The next move by their parents should be to organize invitational-only competitions so that their children can compete on terms that the parents think are fair.
If they're going to compete in some interscholastic sports league, then abide by its rules.
Otherwise, make your own league, and make your own rules.
You got it backwards.
Nope, my response was far and away the most reasonable one posted to date.
The fact that it has drawn downvote-fire from both sides shows that it's a virtual optimal compromise.
Go ahead, protest. But be prepared to face the consequences. And then find a solution that respects your interests.
The more I read about the case, the more inclined I would be to sympathize with the pre-pubescent trans-athlete. So if I were forced to pick a side in the absolute, I'd say let her compete.
But in a compromise to the perspectives of the parents of the other competitors, make your own damned league and follow your own damned rules.
It's too reasonable a position to be popular in this forum on this topic.
36 -
Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
I said, duh-huh wrote:
So the ground rules were that boys can compete against girls? Or whatever the competitor claims to identify as?
First question, how do I set blocks for hooves? Asking for a friend.
Furthermore, my post was clever... and so is this one.
The Circuit Court did not say you could compete as whatever you identified with.
They specifically pointed out that BJP had been on puberty blocker and cross hormone therapy to prevent testosterone-driven puberty, and it had not been proved that she had any competitive advantage.
World Athletics agrees with the Circuit Court.
Stunted or circumvented male puberty does not render one a female. The logic of the decison-making around these issues is profoundy misogynistic.
93 -
Pay The Cost To Be The Boss wrote:
Sir s Lee wrote:
You got it backwards.
Nope, my response was far and away the most reasonable one posted to date.
The fact that it has drawn downvote-fire from both sides shows that it's a virtual optimal compromise.
Go ahead, protest. But be prepared to face the consequences. And then find a solution that respects your interests.
The more I read about the case, the more inclined I would be to sympathize with the pre-pubescent trans-athlete. So if I were forced to pick a side in the absolute, I'd say let her compete.
But in a compromise to the perspectives of the parents of the other competitors, make your own damned league and follow your own damned rules.
It's too reasonable a position to be popular in this forum on this topic.
No, it's that you're trying to have it both ways. This is annoying to everybody. The sex realists don't want males competing in female sports. The trans activists think that self-identification renders one a female, so they don't want parents holding an invitational-only event for actual females.
22 -
Joplas wrote:
The boycott is mean spirited. This girl has been on puberty blockers since she was 10 or 11. This means under world athletics rules, she would be eligible to compete as a girl. She has little or no advantage over the other girls. Girls like her should be allowed to transition and fit in. You right wingers stop being binary. Real life is not binary. We have to balance between the mental health of an actual trans girl vs fairness and allowing a girl who has been on puberty blockers since age 11 is perfectly appropriate.
Nothing healthy about giving in to the delusions of a prepubescent boy that clearly has a mental problem. This kid needed help to accept who he is. He didn't need someone to make irreversible decisions about his life before he could possibly be considered competent in the matter. This is child abuse and it is disgusting. I feel bad for him as he was failed by his parents and doctors. I also feel bad for any girls having to compete with men. It is obviously unfair and only goes one way. There are no girls beating boys in their sports.
And those who have said this is just a fringe far left issue, i will point out that THE PRESIDENT of the united states just endorsed a Title IX change that effectively ties school funding to allowing boys in the girls bathrooms and essentially requires forced adherence to preferred pronouns. Lunacy. This issue will get the left killed in November.
62 -
Joplas wrote:
The boycott is mean spirited. This girl has been on puberty blockers since she was 10 or 11. This means under world athletics rules, she would be eligible to compete as a girl. She has little or no advantage over the other girls. Girls like her should be allowed to transition and fit in. You right wingers stop being binary. Real life is not binary. We have to balance between the mental health of an actual trans girl vs fairness and allowing a girl who has been on puberty blockers since age 11 is perfectly appropriate.
I feel bad for Becky Pepper Jackson. I see Becky as an unfortunate child who is being abused and used as a show pony, political pawn and stalking horse by the adults who have control over Becky's life and are exploiting Becky and other so-called "trans poster children" for their own ends. But I don't think Becky is a girl.
I think Becky is a naive boy who has been told a pack of lies and fed a bunch of fairy tales about Beckyself and the world - and sold a pipe dream about being able to effectively "change sex" through use of Big Pharma products - by Becky's parents, particularly Becky's mum, Becky's doctors, Big Pharma, the gender identity ideologues who've influenced Becky's parents, and the gender vendor industry in general.
I think putting Becky on GnRHa drugs aka "puberty blockers" at age 10 to stop Becky's pitituary gland and male gonads from working properly, then adding Big Pharma estrogen when Becky was 12, in the hope and promise that this will make Becky outwardly look more like the sex Becky wants to be than the sex Becky actually is constitutes medical child abuse.
In my book, putting physically healthy male children on so-called "puberty blockers" at/before Tanner Stage 2 with the intent of stopping their normal, natural male development is sick and a grave violation of their human rights.
The "puberty blocker" drugs and exogenous estrogen that Becky is on haven't turned Becky into a girl. They've simply induced an iatrogenic disorder of sex development (DSD) and turned the poor kid into the 21st century version of the Italian castrati of the Baroque era, the court eunuchs in Imperial China, and the castrated male slaves of the Ottoman Empire.
We know from the experience of the Italian castrati who went on to become world-famous opera singers that even when males have their testicles cut off at 8, 9 and 10 and thus do not go through any of the aspects of male puberty of adolescence that are solely driven by the massive amounts of gonadal testosterone adolescent and adult males typically produce, they still develop physical traits that are distinctly male and which give them an unfair advantage over females in most sports. Such as much larger and more powerful male lungs and thoraxes, and throats with much greater volume that make it much easier to take in and expel a lot more air and to do so much faster.
Moreover, not all the advantages that males have over females in sports come from going through male development in adolescence. Part of the advantage that males have over females in sports - an advantage that is present at all phases of life - is due to the fact that males do not undergo any aspect of female development.
One of the reasons that the advantage males enjoy over females in sports becomes massive during puberty of adolescecnce is that pre-teen and teenage males - including the ones on "puberty blockers" like Becky Pepper Jackson - never have to contend with any of the many pesky features of female biology that are big drawbacks and even hindrances for a great many actual girls in sports. Such as the ups and downs of the constantly fluctating hormones that characterize the female cycle, ovulation, menstruation, PMS, PMDD, pre-menstrual breast soreness, menstrual cramps, menstrual-related anemia, female Q angle, female tendons/connective tissue, female muscles, females' greater susceptiblity to sports injuries.
Becky Pepper Jackson's atttorneys and family have convinced Becky that Becky has a right to compete in the female category of sex-segregated school sports because they claim that Becky's use of so-called "puberty blockers" and Big Pharma estrogen has made Becky so "similarly situated to" female adolescents in a physical sense that Becky is nearly identical to them and has no unfair advantage. But Becky's lawyers and trans activists - and LRC posters like Just Another Hobby Jogger - have never provided any evidence that I find convincing to back up their claim that putting males on so-called puberty blockers at/before Tanner 2 causes them not to have any advantage.
Those who are dead-set on seeing males like Becky shoehorned into female sports come hell or high water - and think it's "mean-spirited," bigoted, rightwing and wrong for girls and women to defend our turf by objecting and protesting - repeatedly insist that males like Becky have no unfair advantage, but when asked to provide proof that shows this claim is really true, they never deliver.
By taking the male-supremacist position that "it's perfectly appropriate" for "the mental health of an actual trans girl" to take precedence over fairness for actual female girls, you're just showing that you don't see youngsters like Becky Pepper Jackson as genuine girls. Because if you did see males like Becky as real girls, you wouldn't give a crap about their mental health.
This post was edited 13 minutes after it was posted.104 -
#ctespn wrote:
4:20 is not that fast wrote:
Athletes don’t get to decide who’s eligible and what the girls did was a personal attack on the transgender girl. Allowing transgender athletes to compete is a complicated issue and not one to be resolved by middle schoolers.
lol its not complicated at all... if you were born with a penis you compete against others in the same category...
It's pretty complicated. Caster Semenya wasn't born with a penis, yet she can't run without lowering her testosterone levels that she gains naturally.
23 -
RunRagged wrote:
Joplas wrote:
The boycott is mean spirited. This girl has been on puberty blockers since she was 10 or 11. This means under world athletics rules, she would be eligible to compete as a girl. She has little or no advantage over the other girls. Girls like her should be allowed to transition and fit in. You right wingers stop being binary. Real life is not binary. We have to balance between the mental health of an actual trans girl vs fairness and allowing a girl who has been on puberty blockers since age 11 is perfectly appropriate.
I feel bad for Becky Pepper Jackson. I see Becky as an unfortunate child who is being abused and used as a show pony, political pawn and stalking horse by the adults who have control over Becky's life and are exploiting Becky and other so-called "trans poster children" for their own ends. But I don't think Becky is a girl.
I think Becky is a naive boy who has been told a pack of lies and fed a bunch of fairy tales about Beckyself and the world - and sold a pipe dream about being able to effectively "change sex" through use of Big Pharma products - by Becky's parents, particularly Becky's mum, Becky's doctors, Big Pharma, the gender identity ideologues who've influenced Becky's parents, and the gender vendor industry in general.
I think putting Becky on GnRHa drugs aka "puberty blockers" at age 10 to stop Becky's pitituary gland and male gonads from working properly, then adding Big Pharma estrogen when Becky was 12, in the hope and promise that this will make Becky outwardly look more like the sex Becky wants to be than the sex Becky actually is constitutes medical child abuse.
In my book, putting physically healthy male children on so-called "puberty blockers" at/before Tanner Stage 2 with the intent of stopping their normal, natural male development is sick and a grave violation of their human rights.
The "puberty blocker" drugs and exogenous estrogen that Becky is on haven't turned Becky into a girl. They've simply induced an iatrogenic disorder of sex development (DSD) and turned the poor kid into the 21st century version of the Italian castrati of the Baroque era, the court eunuchs in Imperial China, and the castrated male slaves of the Ottoman Empire.
We know from the experience of the Italian castrati who went on to become world-famous opera singers that even when males have their testicles cut off at 8, 9 and 10 and thus do not go through any of the aspects of male puberty of adolescence that are solely driven by the massive amounts of gonadal testosterone adolescent and adult males typically produce, they still develop physical traits that are distinctly male and which give them an unfair advantage over females in most sports. Such as much larger and more powerful male lungs and thoraxes, and throats with much greater volume that make it much easier to take in and expel a lot more air and to do so much faster.
Moreover, not all the advantages that males have over females in sports come from going through male development in adolescence. Part of the advantage that males have over females in sports - an advantage that is present at all phases of life - is due to the fact that males do not undergo any aspect of female development.
One of the reasons that the advantage males enjoy over females in sports becomes massive during puberty of adolescecnce is that pre-teen and teenage males - including the ones on "puberty blockers" like Becky Pepper Jackson - never have to contend with any of the many pesky features of female biology that are big drawbacks and even hindrances for a great many actual girls in sports. Such as the ups and downs of the constantly fluctating hormones that characterize the female cycle, ovulation, menstruation, PMS, PMDD, pre-menstrual breast soreness, menstrual cramps, menstrual-related anemia, female Q angle, female tendons/connective tissue, female muscles, females' greater susceptiblity to sports injuries.
Becky Pepper Jackson's atttorneys and family have convinced Becky that Becky has a right to compete in the female category of sex-segregated school sports because they claim that Becky's use of so-called "puberty blockers" and Big Pharma estrogen has made Becky so "similarly situated to" female adolescents in a physical sense that Becky is nearly identical to them and has no unfair advantage. But Becky's lawyers and trans activists - and LRC posters like Just Another Hobby Jogger - have never provided any evidence that I find convincing to back up their claim that putting males on so-called puberty blockers at/before Tanner 2 causes them not to have any advantage.
Those who are dead-set on seeing males like Becky shoehorned into female sports come hell or high water - and think it's "mean-spirited," bigoted, rightwing and wrong for girls and women to defend our turf by objecting and protesting - repeatedly insist that males like Becky have no unfair advantage, but when asked to provide proof that shows this claim is really true, they never deliver.
By taking the male-supremacist position that "the mental health of an actual trans girl" must take precedence over fairness for actual female girls you're just showing that you don't see youngsters like Becky Pepper Jackson as genuine girls. Because if you did see males like Becky as real girls, you wouldn't give a crap about their mental health.
You know we’re talking about middle school, right? Should a female NCAA athlete be allowed to refuse to compete against transgender athlete at a championship meet? Would the coach not have the right to kick her off the team? Would it be a good decision for an athlete to risk her scholarship for action that’s not going to change anything? Riley Gaines is supporting the middle school shot putters but she was willing to compete against Thomas.
02 -
law102 wrote:
The middle school track meet controversy may go to the Supreme Court.
The middle school girls who stepped out of the ring instead of throwing the shot against a biological male have now been banned from future competitions.
How is that even constitutional? I'm trying to think of analogies. But the school district is essentially saying they can ban kids who don't try their hardest in a sport from competing again?
I can see how the track coach might have rules or whatnot but can a school district restrict kids from not trying their hardest from competing again?
Don't kids have a right to compete? Say I'm a basketball player and I don't like my coach. And I say "I'm just going to walk on the court" when put in the game. I do that. The coach has a right to not put me in the game because I'm not competitive but I don't think the school district has a right to say I can't play in another game again because they don't like my attitude.
What am I missing?.Public schools are government entities. They are government, and therefore taxpayer funded organizations. It's absolutely unconstitutional.
11 -
RunRagged wrote:
Zzzzzzz wrote:
Why shouldn’t Becky compete in the category the governing body has decided is the right one for her? Why should she have to worry about something that the adults in charge are responsible for? Because a few snowflakes don’t like trans kids? Sounds like their problem and not hers.
But the governing body for school sports in West Virgiina did not decide that the female category of sports is the right one for Becky Pepper Jackson. Nor did any other body in the state. In fact, the powers-that-be and voters in West Virginia have made it clear that most of them do not believe the female category of sport is the right one for males like Becky Pepper Jackson.
In 2021, by an overwhelming majority, the state legislature of West Virginia passed a law called the Save Women's Sports Act that expressly prohibits males from playing and competing in female school sports.
Becky Pepper Jackson - represented by attorneys from the ACLU and prestigious private law firms - went to court to fight the West Virginia law. Jackson was backed in these efforts by a vast number of powerful civil rights organizations, special interest groups and the Biden administration. (A phalanx of attorneys from the civil rights division of Biden's Department of Justice submitted an amicus brief supporting Jackson.)
Two weeks ago, in mid-April, two out of three (male) judges on the three-judge panel of the US Court of Appeal, 4th Circuit that heard Becky Pepper Jackson's challenge to the West Virginia Save Women's Sports Act issued a ruling saying they decided that an exception to the WV law should be made for Jackson.
The third judge on the panel that heard Jackson's case issued a strongly-worded dissenting opinion saying he vehemently disagreed with his two colleagues.
The girls who decided to forfeit rather than compete against Jackson at the track meet because Jackson is male were protesting the ruling made by the two federal judges who decided an exception to the WV Save Women's Sports Act should be made for Jackson. The ruling of those two judges runs counter to the wishes of the majority of the people in West Virginia and directly contravenes WV state law passed by the state legislature with the support of most of the public.
I.e the adults have said that is the right category. You just don’t like the results.
Hey I feel the same way. It is crazy a few judges get to impose their reproductive views on the majority. It is crazy that a few judges were able push some fringe 2nd amendment interpretation to be the law of the land. And so on.
12 -
law102 wrote:
The middle school track meet controversy may go to the Supreme Court.
The middle school girls who stepped out of the ring instead of throwing the shot against a biological male have now been banned from future competitions.
How is that even constitutional? I'm trying to think of analogies. But the school district is essentially saying they can ban kids who don't try their hardest in a sport from competing again?
I can see how the track coach might have rules or whatnot but can a school district restrict kids from not trying their hardest from competing again?
Don't kids have a right to compete? Say I'm a basketball player and I don't like my coach. And I say "I'm just going to walk on the court" when put in the game. I do that. The coach has a right to not put me in the game because I'm not competitive but I don't think the school district has a right to say I can't play in another game again because they don't like my attitude.
What am I missing?.I think the female athletes had the correct response.
Transgender athletes do not belong in female sport, and the sooner that females at every level just refuse to compete against them, the sooner this nonsense will stop.
52 -
"Becky" will never have children, and will never have a normal sex life. Marci Bowers, transwoman and trans surgeon, has said that any child who goes through puberty this early will NEVER have an orgasm. Furthermore, because his penis will remain child sized, he won't have enough material to fashion a fake vagina.
Imagine thinking that a child can consent to give all of that up. At the age this kid consented, he probably still believed in cooties.
You are on the wrong side of history. This is child abuse, despite what the child thinks he wants.
82 -
Let it Rupp wrote:
here we go again wrote:
This isn't a "left " issue. This is a far extreme left talking point. We on the left do not support this. So stop painting the left with this idiotic brush. We pretty much agree that men identifying as women need to compete in mens divisions.
If this was only a fringe issue, then just about every major sports league wouldn't be needing to make or alter policies on this issue. These controversies wouldn't be popping up if it was just a few extreme wackos.
World Athletics did not see it as a fringe issue. That's why they changed their policy last year.
And they say girls like BPJ can still compete.
12 -
rojo wrote:
If I was still coaching and one of my athletes wanted to compete (and dominate) in the girls division as every single varsoty athlete I coached probably would have been an NCAA girls champion, I think I'd have done it. But in a respectful way, I'd tell them it made no sense. They are biologically male.
First of all, there is not "girls" champion in NCAA. They are all women.
More importantly, how many of your athletes would have won the NCAA if they had been on puberty blocker and cross hormone since age 11?
12 -
Cavorty wrote:
law102 wrote:
The middle school track meet controversy may go to the Supreme Court.
The middle school girls who stepped out of the ring instead of throwing the shot against a biological male have now been banned from future competitions.
How is that even constitutional? I'm trying to think of analogies. But the school district is essentially saying they can ban kids who don't try their hardest in a sport from competing again?
I can see how the track coach might have rules or whatnot but can a school district restrict kids from not trying their hardest from competing again?
Don't kids have a right to compete? Say I'm a basketball player and I don't like my coach. And I say "I'm just going to walk on the court" when put in the game. I do that. The coach has a right to not put me in the game because I'm not competitive but I don't think the school district has a right to say I can't play in another game again because they don't like my attitude.
What am I missing?.I think the female athletes had the correct response.
Transgender athletes do not belong in female sport, and the sooner that females at every level just refuse to compete against them, the sooner this nonsense will stop.
Doing so at every level, would result in minimal sacrifice for some and a massive one for others. Had the two 1600m runners in California not DNSed, should Engelhardt not have run? Would her sacrifice be at the same level of a girl that had no chance of making the final? What if 50% of the athletes just want to compete? Travelling to meets like NXN is a lot of fun for teenagers and it would kind of suck to not go because a transgender athlete was competing there.
00 -
NotSoFast6 wrote:
"Becky" will never have children, and will never have a normal sex life. Marci Bowers, transwoman and trans surgeon, has said that any child who goes through puberty this early will NEVER have an orgasm. Furthermore, because his penis will remain child sized, he won't have enough material to fashion a fake vagina.
Imagine thinking that a child can consent to give all of that up. At the age this kid consented, he probably still believed in cooties.
You are on the wrong side of history. This is child abuse, despite what the child thinks he wants.
I think you meant to say that Marci Bowers has publicly admitted that males put on and kept on so-called "puberty blockers" starting as early as Becky - and as early as the other unfortunate male "trans poster children" like Jazz Jennings, Jackie Green and Trinity Neal who've been used as show ponies by their attention-seeking parents and treated like lab rats/guinea pigs by the ghouls who practice "youth gender medicine" - will never have an orgasm. Or a libido or any kind of normal sexual feelings and sexual response.
As you point out, these poor kids also won't have enough penile and testicular tissue for gender vendor butchers like Bowers to use when they carve up the kids' genitals and try to create fake versions of a vagina and vulva for them.
This is one of the worst child abuse and medical scandals in modern history.
53 -
Cavorty wrote:
I think the female athletes had the correct response.
Transgender athletes do not belong in female sport, and the sooner that females at every level just refuse to compete against them, the sooner this nonsense will stop.
But the girls from the same middle school had no problem with competing against BPJ in discus. This includes one of the same girls who refused to compete in shotput.
The difference is that girls from Lincoln finished 1st and 3rd in discus, and the 3rd place girl had beaten BPJ in the previous week.
11 -
jkjkjjjjlll wrote:
Just goes to show how dumb it is to put this on the school kids to take a stand and not compete. Look at the consequences of basic protest!
The adults - administrators, sporting bodies and government - need to solve this issue.
you mean, like a court, that could rule on such things for all of us -- and then the kids could ignore it and protest anyway?
00
What People Are Talking About On LetsRun
Of General Interest
-
No scholarship limits anymore! (NCAA Track and Field inequality is going to get way worse, right?)
-
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion
-
Does not wanting my kids to watch a bisexual threesome at the Olympics make me a bigot?
-
Matt Fox/SweatElite harasses one of his clients after they called him out