Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

sirpoc84 wrote:

Ok, I'll try to answer this and bring it around back to TSS. TSS is just the trademark training peaks uses that Andy Coggan came up with. I've had run in with the man before on the time trialing forum. I do, however, think he stumbled onto this either by chance or genius. As I started out with this thread I said if I can get to about a CTL score of "60" ( this is irrelevant to everyone else, but meaningful to me) then I will be in 98% of where I wanted to get, no matter HOW I trained to get there. This applies to running and cycling. I don't have much to go on with other runners, but it was very relevant to others I knew as well, in cycling.

Right,so this would be in Friels zone 4. Or you are correct, zone 3 in a traditional sense.

Let's say I do a session, just above the threshold. This might be a super threshold session in Friels book (zone 5a). Let's say I do 40 mins work, in blocks of 4. With a small amount of rest. This is gonna be pretty hard and might give me a TSS for that 40 mins if maybe around 66. You have your warm up and down, you are looking at 90 for the session.

However, let's then decide we are going to run the session at 90-95% if this is a little under LT2, Friel's zone 4. I'm probably going to accumulate maybe 53 TSS for the same amount of time. Again, let's add a proper warm up and down the same as before and say we are maybe at 76-77 TSS for the session.

We've accumulated a little bit less, overall. So why do it? Well it's quite simple. The other session whilst generating more training load, is way more taxing on the recovery. I would probably need two easy days after that, whereas the second session in the example, I only need a day's recovery. So I can run three of those in a week for 228 worth of TSS, whereas the harder session realistically I'm capped at 2 a week. And let's be generous and say 180 worth of TSS (total session). Over time that adds up a lot, to more training load. Doing 3 slightly easier ones a week.

Then when you consider a lot of training programs get you to do a hard vo2 max session, vo2 max gives you a big TSS score, but you can't do much of it. Because it's actually really hard. So it's a high score per hour, but nobody does an hour of it. So it might leave you with even less of a training load as you probably can only handle that + a threshold session + some sort of straight tempo 30 min run if you are lucky, but you are still quite a bit under your TSS score with that combined, compared to the 3x sub threshold (Friels Z4). TSS in my experience going full circle feels like it's created reasonably equally, but the recovery is not weighted accordingly. So much as I said before like cycling, there seems to be this lovely sweetspot if you hit it right and disciplined, where you can create a huge bang for your buck, which is basically what the Norwegian model is in this hobby jogger version I outlined .

hs coach here wrote:

This is a really great thread. At first, having read the first few posts, like all these Norwegian threads I rolled my eyes a bit. But it's actually put forward in a really clear way, although may need to read through a second time. A lot of content here from quite a few posters. I do sometimes think about baseball when I think about stuff like this. Not saying it's made baseball better to actually watch it's robotic now, but how sabermetrics have helped improve players or scouting of players. The old scouts saying how this is how it's always been done, you think in 100 years we couldn't have worked out a better way? Discipline has been mentioned . I think you would have to change the mentality of groups of coached runners over time, because no doubt people will ruin these workouts quite quickly and go to hard. Which I guess means they aren't blowing THAT workout, but the next one, or the one after? If I'm understanding this right.

would like to know again wrote:

sirpoc84 wrote:

Ok, I'll try to answer this and bring it around back to TSS. TSS is just the trademark training peaks uses that Andy Coggan came up with. I've had run in with the man before on the time trialing forum. I do, however, think he stumbled onto this either by chance or genius. As I started out with this thread I said if I can get to about a CTL score of "60" ( this is irrelevant to everyone else, but meaningful to me) then I will be in 98% of where I wanted to get, no matter HOW I trained to get there. This applies to running and cycling. I don't have much to go on with other runners, but it was very relevant to others I knew as well, in cycling.

Right,so this would be in Friels zone 4. Or you are correct, zone 3 in a traditional sense.

Let's say I do a session, just above the threshold. This might be a super threshold session in Friels book (zone 5a). Let's say I do 40 mins work, in blocks of 4. With a small amount of rest. This is gonna be pretty hard and might give me a TSS for that 40 mins if maybe around 66. You have your warm up and down, you are looking at 90 for the session.

However, let's then decide we are going to run the session at 90-95% if this is a little under LT2, Friel's zone 4. I'm probably going to accumulate maybe 53 TSS for the same amount of time. Again, let's add a proper warm up and down the same as before and say we are maybe at 76-77 TSS for the session.

We've accumulated a little bit less, overall. So why do it? Well it's quite simple. The other session whilst generating more training load, is way more taxing on the recovery. I would probably need two easy days after that, whereas the second session in the example, I only need a day's recovery. So I can run three of those in a week for 228 worth of TSS, whereas the harder session realistically I'm capped at 2 a week. And let's be generous and say 180 worth of TSS (total session). Over time that adds up a lot, to more training load. Doing 3 slightly easier ones a week.

Then when you consider a lot of training programs get you to do a hard vo2 max session, vo2 max gives you a big TSS score, but you can't do much of it. Because it's actually really hard. So it's a high score per hour, but nobody does an hour of it. So it might leave you with even less of a training load as you probably can only handle that + a threshold session + some sort of straight tempo 30 min run if you are lucky, but you are still quite a bit under your TSS score with that combined, compared to the 3x sub threshold (Friels Z4). TSS in my experience going full circle feels like it's created reasonably equally, but the recovery is not weighted accordingly. So much as I said before like cycling, there seems to be this lovely sweetspot if you hit it right and disciplined, where you can create a huge bang for your buck, which is basically what the Norwegian model is in this hobby jogger version I outlined .

Wow thanks for the answer. Look, this is a great thread and you may well have a point. Some awesome dudes posting in here who clearly know their stuff, 4-5 of you. However, I think you are all ahead of your time perhaps. It's not reinventing the wheel of course, some of this stuff has been done before. It's reshaping it or making it faster. I do think, if non elites starting out I would 100% get them to follow this. Even those who talk about it on podcasts I listen to, don't understand it or explain it to this level. I just think those who have their straight tempos, vo2 max sessions, 99% of them are laughing at this and won't ever change.

sirpoc84 wrote:

would like to know wrote:

Whilst this thread is still well alive and kicking without JS even ruining it yet I have a question. So, I heard you mention Friel, this running would equate to his zone 4, of the 7 zones he has? Some in his zone 3? Which is all in zone 3 of the classic and Garmin type sense? And you are saying this is good for accumulation of tss or fitness score or whatever metric the software you use computes it as?

Ok, I'll try to answer this and bring it around back to TSS. TSS is just the trademark training peaks uses that Andy Coggan came up with. I've had run in with the man before on the time trialing forum. I do, however, think he stumbled onto this either by chance or genius. As I started out with this thread I said if I can get to about a CTL score of "60" ( this is irrelevant to everyone else, but meaningful to me) then I will be in 98% of where I wanted to get, no matter HOW I trained to get there. This applies to running and cycling. I don't have much to go on with other runners, but it was very relevant to others I knew as well, in cycling.

Right,so this would be in Friels zone 4. Or you are correct, zone 3 in a traditional sense.

Let's say I do a session, just above the threshold. This might be a super threshold session in Friels book (zone 5a). Let's say I do 40 mins work, in blocks of 4. With a small amount of rest. This is gonna be pretty hard and might give me a TSS for that 40 mins if maybe around 66. You have your warm up and down, you are looking at 90 for the session.

However, let's then decide we are going to run the session at 90-95% if this is a little under LT2, Friel's zone 4. I'm probably going to accumulate maybe 53 TSS for the same amount of time. Again, let's add a proper warm up and down the same as before and say we are maybe at 76-77 TSS for the session.

We've accumulated a little bit less, overall. So why do it? Well it's quite simple. The other session whilst generating more training load, is way more taxing on the recovery. I would probably need two easy days after that, whereas the second session in the example, I only need a day's recovery. So I can run three of those in a week for 228 worth of TSS, whereas the harder session realistically I'm capped at 2 a week. And let's be generous and say 180 worth of TSS (total session). Over time that adds up a lot, to more training load. Doing 3 slightly easier ones a week.

Then when you consider a lot of training programs get you to do a hard vo2 max session, vo2 max gives you a big TSS score, but you can't do much of it. Because it's actually really hard. So it's a high score per hour, but nobody does an hour of it. So it might leave you with even less of a training load as you probably can only handle that + a threshold session + some sort of straight tempo 30 min run if you are lucky, but you are still quite a bit under your TSS score with that combined, compared to the 3x sub threshold (Friels Z4). TSS in my experience going full circle feels like it's created reasonably equally, but the recovery is not weighted accordingly. So much as I said before like cycling, there seems to be this lovely sweetspot if you hit it right and disciplined, where you can create a huge bang for your buck, which is basically what the Norwegian model is in this hobby jogger version I outlined .

shirtboy2022 wrote:

sirpoc84 wrote:

The repeating thing mentally is so true, but like you said, helps you to actually control yourself and relax and not add even more stress into your life/week.

The cookie cutter nature really helps to ease my hobbyjogger mind, rather than thinking 'oh, later this week on this one day, i have to execute this incredibly complicated workout flawlessly in a very time crunched manner, and be done by X time to get groceries and pick up my kids still' vs 'this is just one workout, ill do it 3x this week in one form or another -- no big deal either way'

You can frequently see younger folks just hammering everyday with this idea they 'need' to run easy run no slower than X pace. I cant believe that notion hasnt been obliterated at this point.

If anything comes from discussions like this I hope it is to "take it easy on yourself". Most of us know the system in the US where many of us maybe had a higher ceiling talent wise and then just buried ourselves with intervals and 'vo2' work that only destroyed all the hard work we had done rather than built on it.