Flagpole appears whenever this topic comes up. He shows us how he was so bad at saving that he had nothing outside of his retirement accounts. I plugged numbers into Brown's NPC ofn $180K income and $1.5M in investments with some savings and student savings and a $700K house and it says I have to pay the full price of $85K this year.
Can you run D1 somewhere? Probably, but it's not clear why you should want to. If you're looking at the Ivies, then clearly an athletic scholarship isn't make or break. Based on your times, it seems pretty unlikely you'll ever by a sub-14 5k guy. Obviously you don't have to be a sub-14 (or low 14) 5k guy to run D1, but you certainly won't be competitive. If you go to a good D3 program, a 14:30 5k guy can be competitive at nationals, and the level of training will be comparable to or better than a marginal D1 program (although obviously not at the level of Colorado, Washington, or Stanford, etc. or even the Ivies).
Most of the marginal D1 programs are not elite academic schools. Most of the elite academic schools are either pretty good (if not national contender level) D1 schools, or D3. The UAAs is a sort of D3 analogue of the Ivy League conference of top academic schools (U Chicago, NYU, WashU, Emory, etc.). MIT is also D3. You're much better off running at a place like that with an actual chance to be competitive than compromising on academics to run for a marginal D1 program. People on here are being too harsh about your times, but it is vanishingly unlikely you'll ever go pro, so running for you is ultimately a pastime, even if one you're very serious about. Prioritize academics, and look for D3 programs at top academic schools that would be thrilled to have you (a lot would).
some context: just to qualify for 2023 D3 nationals took 14:12 (also 3:47, 1:50.7, and 29:59)
Flagpole appears whenever this topic comes up. He shows us how he was so bad at saving that he had nothing outside of his retirement accounts.
There is no such thing as that. My investing was only for ONE purpose...to retire early and with a sh!t ton of money. Mission accomplished. I made sure to put almost all of my investment money into retirement accounts so I wouldn't be tempted to spend it. I had some non-retirement mutual funds early on, but I used those for certain things, and now I have them again and have had for about 6 years now. Still haven't used any of my retirement money because The Lovely Mrs. Flagpole still works.
I GUARANTEE I have invested more money as a percentage of my income than you have. You would be a statistical anomally to have done more.
Many posters have pointed out that they maxed out their 401ks and paid off a more expensive house than you and paid for several expensive cars all on modest incomes and they still had so much wealth amassed in other investments that the Ivies gave them no discount. But you argue with that somehow. Why not just congratulate them? Why not recognize that the Ivies charge full price for super savers? And you can look at many of the Ivys' sites to see that about 50% of students pay the full price of $85K per year. It is too bad that you can't recognize that tens of thousands of people invest better and pay much more for the top schools than people like you who didn't save more than in your 401k.
The key word here is “hide,” and you’re right, that’s what people, who can and are willing to, do. But it’s not always that simple. Some people make too much money to fund ROTHs. We do. That’s not a super high threshold. Some of our employers discontinued matching on 401k contributions, and then some of our contributions got returned because of not passing certain litmus tests as companies in terms of executive pay. Whole life? Maybe, but that’s mostly a rip off where they take a huge chunk of fees up front.
Say you are a family who makes $300,000 per year but lives in CA or DC. It doesn’t go very far, and then you are boxed out from some of these wealth sheltering vehicles. The only thing I could’ve done is sunk all of my money into my house or cars or moved to a really expensive house. Which is really stupid just to try to get financial aid for college.
It’s just not that simple, but I hear you. Had I made $150,000 per year and lived in the Midwest, I’m sure I would’ve massaged it better.
If you are making 300k adjusted gross income in a HCOL area the system is definitely working against you. the expected contribution is 80k/yr which isn’t something most can reasonable afford.
I am in flagpoles Boat where I make 100k/yr as a mechanical engineer in western Ny and it will simply be a matter of moving my taxable accounts to retirement accounts over the next 15 years, paying down the home loan and switching to traditional IRAs and 401ks for the years they are in college so it looks like I make 65k/yr instead of 100k.
The key word here is “hide,” and you’re right, that’s what people, who can and are willing to, do. But it’s not always that simple. Some people make too much money to fund ROTHs. We do. That’s not a super high threshold. Some of our employers discontinued matching on 401k contributions, and then some of our contributions got returned because of not passing certain litmus tests as companies in terms of executive pay. Whole life? Maybe, but that’s mostly a rip off where they take a huge chunk of fees up front.
Say you are a family who makes $300,000 per year but lives in CA or DC. It doesn’t go very far, and then you are boxed out from some of these wealth sheltering vehicles. The only thing I could’ve done is sunk all of my money into my house or cars or moved to a really expensive house. Which is really stupid just to try to get financial aid for college.
It’s just not that simple, but I hear you. Had I made $150,000 per year and lived in the Midwest, I’m sure I would’ve massaged it better.
If you are making 300k adjusted gross income in a HCOL area the system is definitely working against you. the expected contribution is 80k/yr which isn’t something most can reasonable afford.
I am in flagpoles Boat where I make 100k/yr as a mechanical engineer in western Ny and it will simply be a matter of moving my taxable accounts to retirement accounts over the next 15 years, paying down the home loan and switching to traditional IRAs and 401ks for the years they are in college so it looks like I make 65k/yr instead of 100k.
The key word here is “hide,” and you’re right, that’s what people, who can and are willing to, do. But it’s not always that simple. Some people make too much money to fund ROTHs. We do. That’s not a super high threshold. Some of our employers discontinued matching on 401k contributions, and then some of our contributions got returned because of not passing certain litmus tests as companies in terms of executive pay. Whole life? Maybe, but that’s mostly a rip off where they take a huge chunk of fees up front.
Say you are a family who makes $300,000 per year but lives in CA or DC. It doesn’t go very far, and then you are boxed out from some of these wealth sheltering vehicles. The only thing I could’ve done is sunk all of my money into my house or cars or moved to a really expensive house. Which is really stupid just to try to get financial aid for college.
It’s just not that simple, but I hear you. Had I made $150,000 per year and lived in the Midwest, I’m sure I would’ve massaged it better.
If you are making 300k adjusted gross income in a HCOL area the system is definitely working against you. the expected contribution is 80k/yr which isn’t something most can reasonable afford.
I am in flagpoles Boat where I make 100k/yr as a mechanical engineer in western Ny and it will simply be a matter of moving my taxable accounts to retirement accounts over the next 15 years, paying down the home loan and switching to traditional IRAs and 401ks for the years they are in college so it looks like I make 65k/yr instead of 100k.
Thank you for recognizing that the “system” is indeed working against me and my family. I am perfectly squeezed at both ends, unable to meaningfully contribute to retirement accounts and completely hindered from a ROTH but also paying a high cost of living and paying more in taxes than a Flagpole. My problem, ultimately, his his liberal, a$$hole redistributionist mentality. It’s someone else’s job to pay for his children’s education, even when he could afford it had he merely allocated differently. As I said, I don’t have the luxury of “hiding” money. But I also don’t begrudge you for taking advantage of the way it’s set up.
I’m not complaining, I do feel very fortunate to put my first through a really good private school over four years for under $100k and my second at a state school at about $30k per year, all in. But I think the well-intentioned system is ultimately supposed to be set up to help those of really little means and opportunity, not the early retirement seeking, living-in-a-good-school-district, privileged, liberal whites. Which is ironic and funny. Flagpole could’ve meaningfully pursued a law degree or medical degree or engineering degree w MBA to earn a higher salary, ultimately. But he chose not to do so. Frankly, any of those paths were probably too difficult for him.
This was a mea culpa on my part because I wasn’t considering someone who had a similar standard of living as me but in a high cost of living area. Those people will get screwed on financial aid because you need the savings to help pay for college but the savings increase what the colleges expect you to pay.
$180K is a lot of money. I meant the only part to point out to Flagpole that many people earning below $200K do in fact pay the full price if they don't spend their money. For people who spend, they pay very little to attend the Ivies which is sort of a backwards system that rewards bad behavior and punishes good behavior.
Many posters have pointed out that they maxed out their 401ks and paid off a more expensive house than you and paid for several expensive cars all on modest incomes and they still had so much wealth amassed in other investments that the Ivies gave them no discount. But you argue with that somehow. Why not just congratulate them? Why not recognize that the Ivies charge full price for super savers? It is too bad that you can't recognize that tens of thousands of people invest better and pay much more for the top schools than people like you who didn't save more than in your 401k.
INCORRECT!
1) I'm not arguing with that at all. I fully agree that Ivies charge full price for super savers (and also people with very large incomes). That's part of my criteria that you CAN'T do that outside of your house payment and retirement accounts.
2) I didn't save much outside of my retirement accounts before my youngest went to college, because I didn't have the income to do that. I made enough to max out my retirement accounts (3 of them and for a short while just 2 of them), which was my main priority, and pay off my house (not until after my youngest had started college).
3) I will say it again because you appear to be very slow. IF you have a household income of ~$130,000 AND you don't have extra money sitting in a 529 or some other liquid way (meaning you can own an expensive house, you can have a HUGE retirement account), then you will get about equivalent to full tuition at Ivy League schools and Stanford and about 50+ other elite colleges in this country that have endowments big enough to enable them to do that.
4) If you make $300k (and even less), $500k a year, or over a million dollars a year like my brother does, then you're going to pay full price no matter what. You will ALSO pay full price if, INSTEAD of maxing out retirement accounts, you invested for years into a 529 plan and you have an income that is more in line with what I had when sending kids to college. I know at least three families who did just that...invested in 529 plans immediately instead of fully funding their retirement accounts, so when it came time to pay for college, they got no break at all. That's a BAD financial move for most people.
5) What DOESN'T happen is there are not any people who have had my history of income (including having my wife not work for 15 years as she was a stay at home mom) who have been maxing out 3 and sometimes 2 retirement accounts and who paid off a more expensive house than mine, more expensive cars than mine, and then ALSO saved a ton outside of retirement so that they could pay for college with that. People do that yes, but only if they make a decent amount more than my wife and I did up to college time. Not on our salaries they don't. Just not possible.
The key word here is “hide,” and you’re right, that’s what people, who can and are willing to, do. But it’s not always that simple. Some people make too much money to fund ROTHs. We do. That’s not a super high threshold. Some of our employers discontinued matching on 401k contributions, and then some of our contributions got returned because of not passing certain litmus tests as companies in terms of executive pay. Whole life? Maybe, but that’s mostly a rip off where they take a huge chunk of fees up front.
Say you are a family who makes $300,000 per year but lives in CA or DC. It doesn’t go very far, and then you are boxed out from some of these wealth sheltering vehicles. The only thing I could’ve done is sunk all of my money into my house or cars or moved to a really expensive house. Which is really stupid just to try to get financial aid for college.
It’s just not that simple, but I hear you. Had I made $150,000 per year and lived in the Midwest, I’m sure I would’ve massaged it better.
If you are making 300k adjusted gross income in a HCOL area the system is definitely working against you. the expected contribution is 80k/yr which isn’t something most can reasonable afford.
I am in flagpoles Boat where I make 100k/yr as a mechanical engineer in western Ny and it will simply be a matter of moving my taxable accounts to retirement accounts over the next 15 years, paying down the home loan and switching to traditional IRAs and 401ks for the years they are in college so it looks like I make 65k/yr instead of 100k.
You will be doing the right thing. This ETHICAL AND PROPER strategy is really only applicable to people who make $150,000 max and under. The financial aid falls off a cliff much beyond $150,000 even if you have nothing else.
I know there are many people here who think that $150,000 a year household income is a lot, but even here in Central Ohio, it's not that hard to make. Newly graduated computer programmers make $70,000 here, and if you're 28 and a programmer and marry your 28-year-old RN girlfriend, you'd be up to $150,000 right then. VERY easy for two college graduates to be making $150,000 here (and many places) well before they have kids ready to go to college.
I am a federal employee earning about $160K. My wife stays home with our two children. We have amassed more than $1M outside of our reitrement accounts and our home equity. We paid off our house a few years ago. I have several buddies in the office in similar situations. I don't know why you think you saved more than anyone else. There are millions of people like me. My oldest daughter is a junior in high school. She ran 4:52 this year. She has a 33 ACT. She has been in contact with about a dozen colleges so far. We plugged our information into the calcuators of a bunch of highly selective schools and got different results ranging anywhere from paying the entire $85K to as little as $60K. I don;t think that we are going to amke that sacrifice because our state school indicated that she wold get about 25% off for her ACT and they woud give her 10% as an athletic scholarship leaving us with about $18K to pay. I did some research on the highly selective schools and discovered that some count home equity and some do not. But there is nowhere else to hide our money. We own our cars. We max out my TSP and Roth IRAs for both of us.
I am a federal employee earning about $160K. My wife stays home with our two children. We have amassed more than $1M outside of our reitrement accounts and our home equity. We paid off our house a few years ago. I have several buddies in the office in similar situations. I don't know why you think you saved more than anyone else. There are millions of people like me. My oldest daughter is a junior in high school. She ran 4:52 this year. She has a 33 ACT. She has been in contact with about a dozen colleges so far. We plugged our information into the calcuators of a bunch of highly selective schools and got different results ranging anywhere from paying the entire $85K to as little as $60K. I don;t think that we are going to amke that sacrifice because our state school indicated that she wold get about 25% off for her ACT and they woud give her 10% as an athletic scholarship leaving us with about $18K to pay. I did some research on the highly selective schools and discovered that some count home equity and some do not. But there is nowhere else to hide our money. We own our cars. We max out my TSP and Roth IRAs for both of us.
Good post. According to Flagpole, if you were prudent, you would put that extra $1 million into your home or buy a new, bigger, pricier home so that some college’s endowment could foot the tuition bill for your daughter. Or, because YOU can afford it (again, according to the college, financial planning expert), pay full tuition at the elite school. If I were you, I’d go with the state school too. That’s a really good deal.
Thanks for all the advice. I didn’t expect to get this many replies. I filled out questionnaires for some of the schools mentioned in this thread, and have only heard back from one(the one I’m most interested in) about some general info about the team, and asked if I had any questions. I want respond to the coach with some questions to demonstrate my interest, but I’m not sure what to ask.
I also want to send an email to the coaches from the schools that didn’t reply, but not sure what that email should look like.
I am a federal employee earning about $160K. My wife stays home with our two children. We have amassed more than $1M outside of our reitrement accounts and our home equity. We paid off our house a few years ago. I have several buddies in the office in similar situations. I don't know why you think you saved more than anyone else. There are millions of people like me. My oldest daughter is a junior in high school. She ran 4:52 this year. She has a 33 ACT. She has been in contact with about a dozen colleges so far. We plugged our information into the calcuators of a bunch of highly selective schools and got different results ranging anywhere from paying the entire $85K to as little as $60K. I don;t think that we are going to amke that sacrifice because our state school indicated that she wold get about 25% off for her ACT and they woud give her 10% as an athletic scholarship leaving us with about $18K to pay. I did some research on the highly selective schools and discovered that some count home equity and some do not. But there is nowhere else to hide our money. We own our cars. We max out my TSP and Roth IRAs for both of us.
Good post. According to Flagpole, if you were prudent, you would put that extra $1 million into your home or buy a new, bigger, pricier home so that some college’s endowment could foot the tuition bill for your daughter. Or, because YOU can afford it (again, according to the college, financial planning expert), pay full tuition at the elite school. If I were you, I’d go with the state school too. That’s a really good deal.
NOPE! He makes too much money to greatly benefit from the good will of elite colleges. You are a bit of an ass. I wasn't swimming in extra money. I didn't put a million dollars of improvements into my home, and I didn't HIDE any extra money. I had a full bathroom renovated because the old one was falling apart...paid cash. We got new siding for the house that was necessary...paid cash. Got some new flooring that was also necessary. 4 years before my youngest went to college, we bought a new car for cash and then a two years before she went away to college, we bought a used car for about $10,000 that she used while in high school. We had recently gotten that level of extra cash because my wife had just recently gone back to work.
But $160K is less in current dollars than you were earning when your kids went. The price today is $85K so $180K is about twice the price. What was the price when your daughter attended amd what was your income? Betting you income was at least twice the sticker price yet this guy was able to save a bunch of money while you were not able to. Had you heen a super save line some of us, you also would have paid full price.
But $160K is less in current dollars than you were earning when your kids went. The price today is $85K so $180K is about twice the price. What was the price when your daughter attended amd what was your income? Betting you income was at least twice the sticker price yet this guy was able to save a bunch of money while you were not able to. Had you heen a super save line some of us, you also would have paid full price.
Doesn't matter that 160K is less in current dollars. It ONLY matters what the schools are giving based on income, and that hasn't changed much at all since my daughter's first year of college. And no, my income was NOT twice the sticker price. The school she went to was $75,000 a year all told her first year. We didn't make $150,000 a year then, and in fact I think we only had one year ever where we made more than that (because after that I started purposefully working less. We were making about $125,000 her first year in college...right on what was needed to get full tuition, and we did.
The super saver talk is nonsense. I have always been a super saver...I just did it in retirement accounts, not outside of them. Saved up money outside of retirement accounts and then paid cash for things I needed rather than take loans out for them. Sorry dude, but the vast majority of people take loans for cars, take loans for home improvements, get home equity loans, don't pay their homes off early. I have never done any of that. There just aren't a "lot" of you posting here who made my level of income who maxed out up to 3 retirement accounts, paid their house off early, bought cars and expensive home improvements for cash and then also saved a ton outside of that...not on my income. No freakin' way. Some of you may have (and should have) if you made a lot more than I have, but not at my same level of income relative to the cost of college. Fantasy.