A dude just won the Canadian indoor 1500m women's masters event.
Typical LRC discourse on trans athletes. Yes, avrom, on these boards trans women athletes are treated with derision. They are misgendered, called predators, perverts, sociopaths, hucksters, cheaters…. or dudes. If you are looking for a group that has empathy for trans people and generally respects their rights, but just has issues about how to fairly include trans women athletes in competitive athletics, best to look elsewhere.
Trans girls and women in female sport may not be predators, perverts, sociopaths, or hucksters.
But they are cheaters.
And because they are cheaters, their character is certainly in question. Not because they are transgender, but because they choose to cheat. For those in high school, it calls into question the character of the coaches and parents who support the cheating.
Typical LRC discourse on trans athletes. Yes, avrom, on these boards trans women athletes are treated with derision. They are misgendered, called predators, perverts, sociopaths, hucksters, cheaters…. or dudes. If you are looking for a group that has empathy for trans people and generally respects their rights, but just has issues about how to fairly include trans women athletes in competitive athletics, best to look elsewhere.
Trans girls and women in female sport may not be predators, perverts, sociopaths, or hucksters.
But they are cheaters.
And because they are cheaters, their character is certainly in question. Not because they are transgender, but because they choose to cheat. For those in high school, it calls into question the character of the coaches and parents who support the cheating.
The "trans athletes" who are called cheaters on LRC and in wider society are all males. The issue is their sex, not their gender identities or gender expression.
Trans athletes who are female might get some ribbing and ridicule on LRC, but they usually don't get derision. The derision is almost always reserved solely for the males.
BTW, many people of both sexes today who identify as trans themselves agree with the majority of LRC posters that it's wrong for male athletes who identify as trans to use their gender idenities to horn in on female sports.
Today, a lot of transmen especially are extremely pissed off by what they see as the sexist, entitled, selfish, pushy, "typically male" behaviors of the male trans athletes old and young like Joanna Harper, Veronica Ivy, CeCe Telfer, Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges who've demanded that they and other males who've adopted trans identities be allowed to barge in on areas where males clearly don't belong, such as women's & girls sports.
Some males who "transitioned" long ago feel the sama way. Pro golfer Mianne Bagger and retired pro tennis player Renee Richards are two prominent male trans athletes who fought for the right to compete in women's sports in previous eras. Both now say they don't think it's fair for them and other males to compete against females even after reducing their testosterone levels. Last year on Australian TV Bagger said:
In every day society, of course we want an inclusive, egalitarian [society]. We want equality, lack of discrimination, and of course every single person should have equal access to life and services and work in society. Of course we all want that, and so do I.
In sport? It’s different. Sport is about physical ability. It’s not just about discrimination, it’s not just about equality and equal access. It is a physical ability. Now, if you’ve got one group — males — that are on average stronger, taller, faster, as opposed to women, there has to be a divide. There has to be a division.
These days, [the dynamic] has crept into what’s called self ID or self identification: male-bodied people presenting as women, who live as women, with varying degrees of medical intervention and in some degrees, no medical intervention, which is just — it’s crossed the line, in my view, it really has … It’s a slap in the face to women.
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Isn't it amazing what a bit of propaganda will do to our country? Imagine having this type of conversation in 1999. It would have been fcking outrageous. Now it's normal. This is not progress.
I am not sure who you are referring to but the plural of "bigots" makes me think you meant all of us who see this issue as a no-brainer for inclusion.
Most of us think it is complicated and are trying to find good solutions for the future, especially considering that multiple values that we care about are in conflict. We value fairness, but we also value inclusion. We value intellectual honesty, but we also value respect and kindness. It is not an easy issue.
And there is a real trend on the Left, summarized by an earlier poster, of saying that "it’s okay for a biological male to think he’s female [and want to win at sports], but it’s NOT okay for a biological female to be competitive enough to want to win." It is not bigoted to see how this is a "slap in the face" to biological women.
And it is not bigoted to reject that narrative if we do it in a way that is respectful of individuals and looks for a long-term alternate solution.
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I don’t have to have my head in my butt to not believe your examples are the first steps to the end of women’s sports.
SDSU arrives as scheduled, to play his evergreen classic hit, “We Don’t Need a Levee Because the River Didn’t Flood Last Year.”
There’s no need for levees for a river that doesn’t exist. Many of you can’t seem to accept that athletes coming from a group equal to .3% will not be taking over women’s sports. “One is too many” and the end of women’s sports are not in the same universe.
SDSU arrives as scheduled, to play his evergreen classic hit, “We Don’t Need a Levee Because the River Didn’t Flood Last Year.”
There’s no need for levees for a river that doesn’t exist. Many of you can’t seem to accept that athletes coming from a group equal to .3% will not be taking over women’s sports. “One is too many” and the end of women’s sports are not in the same universe.
And yet you only choose to focus, time in and time out, on the “women’s sports won’t be in existential danger, probably maybe” part and never the “but seriously, one really is too many” part. You spend so much time making the same argument in every thread, and it always somehow looks like you’d rather not see anything done anything about the “few” examples because you don’t happen to like the way people phrase their take on the problem. I’ve never seen you give your proposal for a common sense approach to the issue, just you being like, come on you dumb-dumbs the sky isn’t falling yet so let’s do nothing.
There’s no need for levees for a river that doesn’t exist. Many of you can’t seem to accept that athletes coming from a group equal to .3% will not be taking over women’s sports. “One is too many” and the end of women’s sports are not in the same universe.
And yet you only choose to focus, time in and time out, on the “women’s sports won’t be in existential danger, probably maybe” part and never the “but seriously, one really is too many” part. You spend so much time making the same argument in every thread, and it always somehow looks like you’d rather not see anything done anything about the “few” examples because you don’t happen to like the way people phrase their take on the problem. I’ve never seen you give your proposal for a common sense approach to the issue, just you being like, come on you dumb-dumbs the sky isn’t falling yet so let’s do nothing.
The common sense approach is for the courts to hash it out.
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Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote: Or the poster may mean those who think this issue is a no-brainer for exclusion. There are many of them on this thread and elsewhere on this board. Here is a newsflash for you. Every post is not about you.
Fair enough. And it is very kind of you to defend the guy who calls us "bigots" without even telling us which bigots he is referring to. :)
I know it is not "about me" but I think using kinder, more tolerant language would make this more productive for all of us. Is there no common ground on this issue? I think there is.
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Reason provided:
forgot quote
Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote: Or the poster may mean those who think this issue is a no-brainer for exclusion. There are many of them on this thread and elsewhere on this board. Here is a newsflash for you. Every post is not about you.
Fair enough. And it is very kind of you to defend the guy who calls us "bigots" without even telling us which bigots he is referring to. :)
I know it is not "about me" but I think using kinder, more tolerant language would make this more productive for all of us. Is there no common ground on this issue? I think there is.
You are still assuming that you were among the people called "bigots" by the other poster. He didn't quote your post. He quoted OP's post. So he could have meant OP, MKB, and anyone who totally agrees with her.
Yes. Kinder, more tolerant language would be more productive, but that also includes kinder, more tolerant language toward trans people. Something many posters on this board are adamantly against.
I don't know what you mean by "common ground." If that means kids like those in #113 and #114 should be told they need to either join boys' team or quit their sports, and the only question is how to convey that message in kinder, more tolerant language, I don't know if I am interested in any further discussion.
Does any person with Y chromosome belong in girls/women's sports under any circumstance? If the answer is absolute "no" then I don't think there is any "common ground."
Does any person with Y chromosome belong in girls/women's sports under any circumstance? If the answer is absolute "no" then I don't think there is any "common ground."
I think you hit on the right answer in your last paragraph. People who say, "there is no place or time or context where a trans-girl (born a boy) should compete in girls sports" are indeed over-reaching and over-reacting. I agree with you on that.
Most boys who transition to girls are not superstar athletes. Many of them are simply trying to find a place to fit in and live their best lives. If they are "mid-pack" athletes, I don't think most of us would even notice them or care if they finish in 33rd place with a time of 22:40 for 5km. If that is 95% of trans-girls' athletic experiences, great, let them play. I think most people are tolerant of that.
But the Left can't also leave the door open to world-beaters like we've seen in swimming, running, cycling, etc. These trans-girls and trans-women are literally built differently and can dominate the podium despite only being .001% of the athletic population. That is not okay.
The moderates and political Right are not automatically "anti-trans" but they are against policies that allow trans athletes to take away podium spots and spots on starting rosters. You can certainly see why most people aren't okay with that. Girls can't physically compete with boys in sports at the elite level, that is why they have a protected class. Trans-inclusion doesn't change that reality.
p.s. The non-binary division at a race, as you can imagine, is always won by non-binary males. Does that mean that non-binary females need their own sub-division? Do you see the irony in that? Of course, we all do.
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Reason provided:
added word
Does any person with Y chromosome belong in girls/women's sports under any circumstance? If the answer is absolute "no" then I don't think there is any "common ground."
I think you hit on the right answer in your last paragraph. People who say, "there is no place or time or context where a trans-girl (born a boy) should compete in girls sports" are indeed over-reaching and over-reacting. I agree with you on that.
Most boys who transition to girls are not superstar athletes. Many of them are simply trying to find a place to fit in and live their best lives. If they are "mid-pack" athletes, I don't think most of us would even notice them or care if they finish in 33rd place with a time of 22:40 for 5km. If that is 95% of trans-girls' athletic experiences, great, let them play. I think most people are tolerant of that.
But the Left can't also leave the door open to world-beaters like we've seen in swimming, running, cycling, etc. These trans-girls and trans-women are literally built differently and can dominate the podium despite only being .001% of the athletic population. That is not okay.
The moderates and political Right are not automatically "anti-trans" but they are against policies that allow trans athletes to take away podium spots and spots on starting rosters. You can certainly see why most people aren't okay with that. Girls can't physically compete with boys in sports at the elite level, that is why they have a protected class. Trans-inclusion doesn't change that reality.
p.s. The non-binary division at a race, as you can imagine, is always won by non-binary males. Does that mean that non-binary females need their own sub-division? Do you see the irony in that? Of course, we all do.
There’s (was)Thomas but who are these world-beaters in cycling and running?
As always, the “Left “ has absolutely nothing to do with the rules regarding transgender athletes.
Does any person with Y chromosome belong in girls/women's sports under any circumstance? If the answer is absolute "no" then I don't think there is any "common ground."
I think you hit on the right answer in your last paragraph. People who say, "there is no place or time or context where a trans-girl (born a boy) should compete in girls sports" are indeed over-reaching and over-reacting. I agree with you on that.
Most boys who transition to girls are not superstar athletes. Many of them are simply trying to find a place to fit in and live their best lives. If they are "mid-pack" athletes, I don't think most of us would even notice them or care if they finish in 33rd place with a time of 22:40 for 5km. If that is 95% of trans-girls' athletic experiences, great, let them play. I think most people are tolerant of that.
But the Left can't also leave the door open to world-beaters like we've seen in swimming, running, cycling, etc. These trans-girls and trans-women are literally built differently and can dominate the podium despite only being .001% of the athletic population. That is not okay.
The moderates and political Right are not automatically "anti-trans" but they are against policies that allow trans athletes to take away podium spots and spots on starting rosters. You can certainly see why most people aren't okay with that. Girls can't physically compete with boys in sports at the elite level, that is why they have a protected class. Trans-inclusion doesn't change that reality.
p.s. The non-binary division at a race, as you can imagine, is always won by non-binary males. Does that mean that non-binary females need their own sub-division? Do you see the irony in that? Of course, we all do.
No. Most people are not tolerant on trans athletes finishing in the mid-pack. 2/3 of people are against that. (88% of Republicans are against that, including 77% who are "strongly" against.)
Where is the evidence that the "Left" is leaving the door open for world beaters? Did anyone on the "Left" protest when World Aquatics, UCI or World Triathlon changed their policies? Where are the lawsuits against them? ACLU is supporting Becky's lawsuit against the state of WV. They are not supporting Lia Thomas suing World Aquatics. The issue of elite athletes can be handled by sports governing bodies. There is no need to use it to bully vulnerable youths like many state legislators are doing today.
