Theoretical high school team of ritz, rupp, webb, hall, solinsky(at 17-18 yrs old). Do they beat Newbury Park top 5?

Just trying to give credit to Ritz where it's due. He proved that he was substantially better than Webb and Hall in XC two years in a row, and he finished Footlocker 2000 looking like he had one foot in the grave.

What track times do NP guys have to run in order to end this debate? Genuinely curious.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

What track times do NP guys have to run in order to end this debate? Genuinely curious.

another oldie wrote:

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

What track times do NP guys have to run in order to end this debate? Genuinely curious.

Well, they have to start by running standard events which can be compared across generations. By this I mean not 1600 nor 3200. If you run 5000 on a track, you can be compared to Pre, Shorter, these guys from around the turn of the century, Jakob, whoever.

But the real answer is: faster than the guys you're comparing them to. Every NP fan says it's a formality to go under 14 on the track. Well, do so. We're waiting. Then we see how far they are from Rupp's time. Then there is valid, objective comparison. Track times are accurate and comparable.

I'm not suggesting the new guys are a joke. Just saying it is absolutely valid to point out HS track PRs of Solinsky, Webb, et al. They really did run them; NP has theoretically run them. There's a step between conceptually being capable of something and literally doing it. A big step.

And I think using collegiate times to somehow extrapolate what you could've done a year or 2 earlier is terribly inaccurate. Look at the discussion above on how much Nico improved since HS. About half a minute in 5k. Impressive, and he's certainly talented, but to say his current PRs are 'worth' X amount of seconds if you rewind a year and a half is ridiculous. We know exactly what he ran in HS. To the 1/100 of a second!

So, let's see what they do between now an August. Maybe we'll see something that puts one of them in all-time US HS territory. But we haven't yet.

coach brosnan wrote:

If super shoes are so super then why has no one come close to the 1500 or 3k records after over 20 years? Why is webbs American mile record untouched.

Shouldn't runners be blowing it out of the water now?

Why are we just simply discounting NP times?

In one sense I agree with the 'coach' . Why aren't track times coming down from 800-3000? Keep in mind KB's records weren't brought down by a shocking amount. I give Wavelight credit for all of that, which is to say I believe Kenny could have gone a few seconds faster for 5k and several seconds more for 10. The benefit is going to be greater the longer you are running hence the lack of significance absolutely perfect, infallible pacing is giving over the distances El G and Komen specalized in. It is possible to maintain perfectly focused concentrate for 3-7 minutes. Difficult, but since those 20 year old times were actually run, apparently possible. It is much harder for 25-29 minutes. Pacing lights: That is my answer to those screaming about shoes and records. Especially track 10k records.

But to answer the coach's question, we discount NB's times because they were run on a course both shorter and flatter than what Ritz, Solinsky, and plenty of guys ran their best XC performances on. That's it. We have examples of runners who, a week apart, ran the short course and a historical course old guys ran on. We see and can compare the times. If we saw this current wave of guys breaking course records, especially those held by specific runners in this comparison, then we wouldn't discount them. Show me a course that Rupp, Ritz, Solinsky Webb, Hall AND these NP guys have run. Let's compare times then. What the doubters DON'T buy is that the Runninglane times suggest that they could run as fast or faster on any of these other courses. We know they can't because they haven't.

I love tullyrunners but speed ratings for footlocker are pretty unique circumstances. Basically every single highest speed rating ever is run at Footlocker where the "old guys" get their best from, something doesn't add up. Its not like every single great ever all of a sudden tries harder and runs 30 seconds faster because its footlocker which Meylan says is the cause these extremely high ratings "the best know they'll be racing the best and have to put up a phenominal performance to win". This should be the same for other national championships but the NXN winner has routinely been around 200-201 with Nico and Chris Derrick with 205 as the highest. From his own words he derives the course adjustment from the bulk/pack of most races and when you remove all those runners and only look at the top elite I feel like it gives funky different results that shouldnt necessarily compare to other races. NXN which has the pack runners in it hasn't yielded those same extreme results. Ritz wouldn't have run 13:30 at runninglane which is what his speedrating implies.

Well, Leo did run 8:43 as a soph. Did any of the old guys do that? And 3 of the NP guys have 2 more track seasons left, so we will see.

What courses did RItz run that you want them to go to? The Michigan state course? Midwest eastbay course? the former footlocker course Ritz ran in FLorida? How about Woodward where NP has the 2-5 all time times (counting Nico) and #13. Every CA runner has run there. CA has 8 Footlocker/Kinney champions, 2 NXN champs and numerous other studs through the years like Hall and NP has completely rewritten those record books

Would be cool for NP to go to one of the big invitationals outside of CA like Manhattan and just obliterate those records next year. I think all 3 could break Ches 11:55 mark, I always thought that one was fairly weak.

"completely rewritten the record books"? Actually they haven't. Didn't get Fernandez' record and have run the course a number of times. And keep in mind, German was not considered to be on anybody's short list of the American HS greats. Read the whole thread.

A few guys get mentioned here and there as being worthy of the 'old guy all-star team'. Not him. So none of NP appear to be the best out of CA ever.

Is there any course where a NP runner has the course record besides Runninglane, which no ones seems to have ever run prior to last year?

But that is sort of slightly off topic. I am not saying I 'want them' to run the old Florida course that doesn't seem to exist. I don't want them to run at all, really. Nevertheless, if they or you want me to compare them to other runners, especially during other eras, they're going have to run either road, track, or on the same XC courses as previous greats. Am I demanding they do road races? Absolutely not, but a certified road course is going to be accurately measured. Runninglane is not. As the Brojos have been saying the last few weeks, times cannot be accurately compared from one XC course to another.

All that having been said, I can think of one course in San Diego that has existed long enough that some of the great ones have posted times there. Verzbikas has won on it, just to mention another who doesn't make anybody's list in this thread, but who (if you trust track times, as I do) seems to be quite a bit faster than anybody out of NP. I don't have any rooting interest in that school, so I don't 'want them' to run there or anywhere, but if you expect me to compare them them favorably to Ritz, Lindgren, Pre, et al, (and especially to those having run the course in question) it would be a start. A course record there would mean something. A course record on a flat 3 mile course designed for them to run fast does not.

Sorry the 16 year olds up 4 seconds short of german's time. Im sure they'll get it next year. And German is absolutely on the short list of American hs greats. I assume this thread is about people who went on to great things after hs. No one in their right mind would take high school Ryan hall over German or LV.

haha YOYO wrote:

coach brosnan wrote:

Rupp couldn't beat winthrow at footlocker. He could only handle perfect conditions on a track, not xc. Too much of a running diva in high school.

I think NP blows them out of the water to be honest.

When has NP run anything other than tracks on grass? They've run on the most pampered courses known to man.

The CA state championship course at Woodward Park is fairly tough. Plus, they ran on it with traditional flats (specifically the Victory XC 5), no new shoe tech to be found. Their top 5 averaged 14:41 on that course, and I'm really skeptical that the old timer roster could match that performance. I think Ritz and Solinsky would be hard pressed to break 14:30 on that course, and Rupp would run MAYBE 14:35, likely more like 14:37-38ish. That's just my opinion though

freekiprop,

I'm with you. I agree these guys now are good but don't match up with German. He is objectively better than than anyone who has ever run for NP. We know that because they ran the same course. We have actual times that don't require interpolation, extrapolation, nor speculation..

I'm not saying I would or wouldn't put him on some all-time list. Just making the point that there have been so many greats that I'm reading posts listing a handful other than him. I'd take Fernandez over a lot of guys. But it's easy if you're just trying to get 5 guys in ahead of NP's 5. It would be possible to pick a good 5 and still not get to him. That's how deep the bench is of guys who are competitive with these new guys. Now, to NB's credit, we're taking a long historical look to pick the team. Make it 10 deep, your guy's certainly getting mentioned.

I am not sure we disagree anywhere, freekiprop. I think you and the poster I was responding to do.

They need to run negative times (literally travel through time and space) to adjust for the super shoes according to these old time jokers.

Meanwhile they don’t realize that Nico ran 8:40 as a high school junior before super shoes existed. Then he massively improved (see margin of victory over Sprout and Methner and Schoppe at NXN).

The other NP kids have done the same training all year as Nico did his senior year. They are that good.

Watch the German 2007 race where German nearly passes out at the finish line and compare that to the 2019 Nico state meet and 2021 C. Sahlman race. They were most definitely holding back that day.

Also for reference see how both Nico and Colin looked exhausted after NXN and RL respectively.

NP is the next Ingerbritsens wrote:

They need to run negative times (literally travel through time and space) to adjust for the super shoes according to these old time jokers.

Meanwhile they don’t realize that Nico ran 8:40 as a high school junior before super shoes existed. Then he massively improved (see margin of victory over Sprout and Methner and Schoppe at NXN).

The other NP kids have done the same training all year as Nico did his senior year. They are that good.

You don't need to adjust for shoes because none of NP are faster than Fernandez. That's right. Hold the theoretical meet in Fresno and German comes in before any of them. Not just before #5 - before #1. We know this because Fernandez- in whatever shoes he wore - has run that course faster than any NP runn a ever - with whatever shoes they wore. That's fact. An you compare Runninglane times to German's times? You could if he had ever run that course.

I don't think any of us who believe the all-time all-stars could get a number of guys in before NP's first are blaming shoes for anything.. There are many courses where a spiked shoe would be much better than Vaporflies. They don't really seem to be wearing the best shoe for a muddy, deep grass course. Then again, they don't run those.

Earlier I commented that in the entire thread, nobody mentioned Fernandez as a contender if you're putting an all-time high school list together. So, if the consensus is that Ritz and Solinsky are 1&2, then Rupp is up there close to them....well, we know German is ahead of all NP ever - including Nico (this is measurable fact) and I was the first to mention Verzbikas......it's looking like the old timers could get all 5 in before any current HS runner from any school. By the way, Ritz, Rupp, and Lukas at least (and maybe all 5 I referred to) have better track PRs than any NP runner ever.

Admittedly, the 5 I just gave you - Ritz, Solinsky, Verzbikas, Rupp, Fernandez - isn't the 5 of the OP, but if you argue German is last among them, then they all get through before any NP including Nico. Are those on my side of the debate crying foul about shoes? No...especially if it's sloppy and favoring spikes as opposed to Vaporflies. Even wearing super shoes, they couldn't get a single runner through faster than Fernandez, and most of the posters consider him behind a few of the old-timers mentioned in the OP. It is an incredibly tall order for 2 families to beat all of US high history.

To be fair, I don't think anyone but Ritz would have touched German's Woodward time. GF IMO is the most talented of all the athletes discussed. From memory he began running as a sophomore, and was oft injured between then and his senior XC season, and relatively low mileage.

I'm an oldie too, but you guys need to accept that the new generations get faster and faster. Of course NP loses to am all time great XC all star team, but no reason to discredit these guys who are pushing record limits everywhere they run.

This whole post is stupid since they worse old xc spikes for Woodward, not supershoes.

Everyone that is saying that Fernandez and the other older runners are faster than the NP guys are comparing the times they ran as seniors to the NP's soph and junior times. GF ran 15:37 at CIF and finished 2nd his junior year. The Young twins ran more than a minute faster (Nico ran 15:00). Same with track times. Sure Ritz, Solinsky and Rupp have faster track times than the NP guys do as sophs and juniors. And we don't know what times Nico would have run his senior year in track either in a normal season.

Why don't we wait until the NP guys finish their high school careers before we evaluate their place among the all-time greats. Maybe none of them will never run any faster. I won't be surprised if at least one of them breaks the Woodward CR next year.