There is no “genetic superiority” when it comes to distance running. Literally everyone sub 2:09 is just doping.

Take a cold shower after watching uour Keino videos before you start posting here.

Who are the two best Kenyans of the 60s and 70s? And what's your point about Ovett at all? You like him more than Rono?

Are you confused by your friend Armstronglivs' mentally disturbed usage of "faster"? Or is it ONLY your long-known obtuseness?

Not the fastest 2 Miles - wich part of this sentence do you not comprehend? I know about your difficulties - but here?

Not only Keino, Coevett!

Watch Rono, Boit, Kimobwa, Kipkurgat, Ngeno, Jipcho, Temu, Maina and others.

You want more clips? I can search for them if you have also here some difficulties.

OK, I think I got ot now: you are trying to challenge the fact that Kenya in the period 1964 - 1979 was the no. 1 track distance running nation on the men's side (most successful on the top). Right?

But I already tried to explain it to you after you came up with Filbert Bayi.

Ovett - like Bayi - is not a country. You have to come up with another COUNTRY. Something like Maledives. Island. Angola. Burma. Great Britain. You understand now?

Name a country which you think was more successful than Kenya, than we can compare them. And will see that indeed Kenya was more successful.

This claim of Kenyan (Kalenjin) superiority is easy to debunk.

The Kalenjin population was some one million in the late 1960s, likely double that some twenty years later. Correspondingly it is common knowledge that every other city and state in the US and UK with population of roughlt some 1-2 million also won some 4 individual distance golds and 10 medals in total in three consecutive olympics they took part as the Kalenjis had done in 1968, 1972 & 1984 + the world records. (Of course a few Kenyans, e.g. Mike Musuyoki weren't Kalenjis, but in addition to 800m-marathon, for instance the 400m bronze medallist in 1972 was)

Yes, the triumphant Birmingham (UK) runners, whom everyone knows by name, all the half a dozen olympic medallists, elites of the world! And don't forget the almost dozen olympic medals that West Virginians won then, four of them gold in just three olympics!

And don't let me start with Rhode Island, an island of natural born warrior endurance runners!

That Kenya (mainly Kalenjins) right from the start were enourmous succssfull in distance running is a pure fact (a fact which those two imbeciles don't want to accept - they would also question 2 + 2 = 4 if a Kenyan is claiming it to be true).

The only question - and this is asked and discussed since decades - is: what's the reason for this enormous success. Looking at the long string of recent Kenyan busts (and over the last years) and concluding this is only the result of doping for me is absurd.

But we can't have an ultimate answer to this.

First of all, your entire argument seems dependent upon the idea that Kenyans were not doping before the late 80's or 90's. I disagree with Armstrong here. I believe that there was at least some Kenyans doping, with Keino being the most obvious candidate. Charlie Francis made the claim that the IAAF conducted surveys of athletes at the 1968 games regarding doping (there was no testing yet), and found that both the Jamaican and Kenyan teams were fully roided. I see no reason why he'd make that up, and it fits in with the performances of the Kenyan team that year, especially Keino.

Secondly, as Armstrong has correctly pointed out, even with suspicious athletes like Keino, Kenya were not the number 1 distance running country. They were just another country, arguably not even the most successfuly in Africa, that produced a few world class runners.

Henry Rono is the Kenyan athlete that I would consider most likely to have been clean. He's probably representative of what the best Kenyans can do. He was a great athlete, but he benefitted from the distances 3000 - 10000 being weak at the time. The 1500/mile was 100 x more glamorous than the 5000m. Only failed 1500m runners took up the 5000. And those genuinely talented at distance running, would compete in the other glamour event - the marathon. And when you look at Rono's times, they are nothing superhuman, even in the pre-EPO era. His 5000m WR of 13:06 was smashed by 6 seconds by David Moorcroft the following year, who ran the entire race solo without pacemakers. Moorcroft only took up the 5000m because he couldn't get a place in the GB 1500m teams because of Ovett, Coe, Cram etc.

Why should it be a surprise that Kenya should produce several world class athletes in the 60's and 70's? They achieved nothing else at any other sport. They had a population even back then of 3 times that of New Zealand, who produced Peter Snell and others. They did absolutely zero in the marathon. Not one runner in the top 150, right up to the end of the 80's. If you want to claim that it's because few Kenyans were running the marathon, then why not accept that the reason Kenyans (and other East Africans) dominate the marathon today is due to participation levels (+ rampant doping with EPO)? There are literally hundreds of full time East African marathon runners, compared to a handful in non-African countries. If the majority of them are also doping with a drug that knocks 7 or 8 minutes off your marathon times, then it's hardly surprising that the top 100 or 200 are nearly all East African. TBH, you'd expect the top 1,000 to be exclusively East African if they really had any clear genetic advantage.

Another thing that rarely gets mentioned is that athletics, at least for the world class performers, was effectively professional in Kenya (and Ethiopia) decades before it was in the West.

Roger Bannister, Herb Elliott, Peter Snell, Jim Ryun - all were essentially forced to retire in their mid-twenties and 'get a job'.

Then look at the three Kenyan greats from the 60's and 70's - Keino, Mike Boit, and Henry Rono.

Keino was 28 when he won gold in Mexico. He was less than two years older than Herb Elliott who had long retired. He was only a year younger than Peter Snell, who had retired three years previously. If the sport had been professional back then, he would almost certainly have been facing Elliott and Snell in that final in Mexico, as well as Ryun. (Pretty sure both Snell and Elliott would have prepared for altitude better than Ryun did as well).

Keino continued to 1972 and won gold in the steeplechase. Again - he was less than two years older than Elliott who had retired 10 years previously.

Henry Rono's best year was 78 when he was 26. At the same age, Bannister, Elliott, Snell, Ryun had all retired, as was the norm for non African runners.

Imagine if Herb Elliott had continued into his 30's? He and his coach had plans to even move up to the marathon eventually. He would likely have set WRs in every event up to and including the marathon that would not have been broken until the 80's (and not by Rono).

And then of course Mike Boit. Who was still competing at the top at age 35.

The reason why Kenyan runners could continue into their 30s, when the norm at the time was for non African runners to retire at 25, was because they were being 'rewarded' back home. Financial doping, if you like.

If Keino, Boit, and Rono had all retired by age 25, like Bannister, Elliott, Snell, and Ryun, few would even remember them today.

*Keino was less than two years younger than Elliott, of course.

I see you are trying your level best to close the gap to Armstrong, and you are doing quite well. But Armstrongs lead as the no. 1 idiot of the village at the moment just is too big.

After all the facts which were presented to you just in this thread, you came up with this unbelievable denying of the reality.

Kenya was the no. 1 country in the world. Looking just for African nations there is not even a contest, Kenya was miles ahead.

But I see, you are still struggling with the meaning of country.

And, no, not only middle distance and Marathon was popular in the 70s - Lasse Viren is probably the most popular athlete of the 1970s at all. What was Coe`s answer when asked for the greatest Olympian? Lasse Viren - and he has not added that Viren only competed in Mickey Mouse events.

But Kenya also was the most successful nation in the middle distances in the 64, 68 and 72 Olympics (and would have maintained so if 76 is included, without the boycott).

And why someone stops competing or starts competing is completely irrelevant for this question. If they want to study, went pregnant, died, or changed to become professional (as Keino and Jipcho did) is completely irrelevent.

Relevant is the combined succes from athletes from some specific nation: Kenya was most successful. That's what all the statistics clearly show.

So far you came up with two nations which were more successful in your opinion: Bayi and Ovett. But I'm not convinced.

I'm waiting for your own exposere of idiot of the village. Try your best, Armstrong set the bar very high.

Are you really saying that the 5000m and 10000m are "Mickey Mouse events"?

Speaking of "mentally disturbed":

-Slower:- "I have said no runner was faster than Keino in his era."

Yet:-

Keino: 13.24; Clarke: 13.16.6. Keino: 3.34.9; Ryun: 3.33.1.

So not only is slower now "faster" it must be also apply that up is down, black is white and truth is falsehood. The biggest lie of course is that Kenya is an honest sporting nation.

The entirety of slowwer's posts is given to the denial of the obvious and now proven truth, that Kenya has shown itself to be amongst the worst doping cheaters on the planet for distance running. None of their previous achievements can escape that taint because there is no point where it can be assumed they were clean. They have shown doping is their norm. It would be the same for any other country, but in this the Kenyans lead the pack.

You are lifting the bar again. How should Coevett close the gap in idioty then?

At least, give him some chance, OK?

I thought we agreed that Keino was faster than Clarke?

Hopefully the post above your last one is also yours.

My posts have nothing to do with this string of Kenyan doping busts, they are not denying this in any way.

Kenya was the most successful distance running nation in the period 1964-1979.

You evidently find this important and the claim by Charlie Francis accurate. But what Charlie Francis actually (allegedly) claims?

I am confused, because you wrote a few years ago the following in another thread:

"Charlie Francis claimed that every Kenyan at the 68 Olympics was tested and found to be roided (although it wasn't yet illegal)."

It looks as if you have clue what he was writing about. It would help your case significantly if you could locate the original source, at least we knew that Francis made some allegations about the 1968 Kenyans.

1. Kenya was not the most successful distance running nation on Earth 1964-1979. They did not even have a single guy in the top 150 marathon times in that period.

2. What success they had on the track during that period was due to their athlete's fortunate ability to continue running into their late 20's and beyond, the fact that Mexico was at altitude, and possibly doping (very likely in the case of Keino).

Coe ran 2 seconds faster than Mike Boit.

Ovett trounced Rono at Rono's event while waving to the crowd.

Keino NEVER came close to reproducing his (highly suspicious) performance in Mexico. His fastest sea level 1500m was 3:36.9. Jim Ryun had run 3:31.1 Less than 10 years later and Coe and Ovett were running 3:31.

There is NOTHING about Kenya between 1964 - 1979 to suggest they had any kind of special genetic advantage, or that they were 'destined' to dominate distance running.

Before EPO, no Kenyan had broken 3:32.5. That performance (Kirochi) was the 57th best of all time. It took over 19 years for a Kenyan to run (0.03 seconds) faster than Jim Ryun (1986 - Cheryiut).

Before EPO, Brazil had more performances in the top 25 all-time 800m list than Kenya.

Before EPO, only four Kenyans had broken 13:14 for 5000m, and one of those was suspended for evading tests, and another's brother later banned for EPO use.

Before EPO, ZERO Kenyans had broken 2:09 for the marathon, while FOUR Japanese had, THREE Australians, THREE Ethiopians, and TWO Brits had.

Before 1992/93 and the EPO era, there was absolutely nothing that a Kenyan had done which would make anyone sit up and consider the possibility that they might be 'different'.

With the exception of Keino's performance at altitude in Mexico, which was clearly the result of the advantage to him of it being at altitude (and likely doping in a Mexico hospital).

There is absolutely nothing like Bernard Lagat running 3:26, or Kipchoge running 2:01, leaving the white guys in the dust and not being able to compete.

No Kenyan had run faster than 3:32.5, yet within a decade of EPO, Lagat is running 3:26. How can Lagat run 10 seconds faster than Keino (at sea level), when Keino was according to Slowerr, the best runner of his generation? No Kenyan had broken 2:09 in the marathon before EPO in 3 decades, and just the other week, a Kenyan debuted with a 2:01.

It seems odd that in three decades (1960-1990) of Kenya being the 'number 1 distance running country', they produced nothing in terms of times that would mark them out as being on another level to other nations.

How is 13.24 faster than 13.16? You are a joke.