Quitting drinking

Had a particularly tough day at the family gathering. Did not drink but fought with myself a lot about it. It’s hard feeling like you aren’t participating as much or that you aren’t as much fun as you could be.

So, hope you'll pardon the rather lengthy replies (both before and here...I didn't see your message before writing my last response)...thirty years of marriage is an accomplishment. You should give up drinking...because it's not worth it.

Now for something that might be BS, but seemed really relevant when I read it. In a book on a new form of sex therapy, there is a passage about a couple called "Mike" and "Veronica."

Mike thinks he is a sex addict. He uses phone sex lines to engage in fantasies that involve role play and dirty talk that his wife will not entertain in the bedroom. He masturbates to "Playboy" and "Penthouse" and enjoys objectifying women. Veronica actually permits Mike to engage in this behavior, believing that he simply has a higher sex drive and feeling some relief that she is not expected to be intimate with her husband in a manner that she considers degrading or unpleasant.

But Mike's obsession grows and Veronica eventually puts her foot down. Gently, at first, telling him to be careful where he hides his pornographic magazines, because she (on most likely false pretenses) believes that their teenage niece may discover the magazines and be traumatized. Then it becomes more of an issue and Mike starts to enjoy his fantasy world more than his relationship with his spouse.

Veronica feels hurt and like a victim. But the author frames her behavior in a way that is unexpected, calling the way she handled the matter behavior a "pseudo mature overresponsible little girl." (Um...your wife actually gave you permission, then judged you; in marriage therapy circles, this is called "peeing on the gift.")

The author of the book basically says "they have different styles and preferences about sexual intimacy and they need to reconcile them."

Here is a relevant passage that I copied word-for-word, because I wanted to draw your attention to the dynamic you have and how *it*, not alcohol (or porn, or hanging out with your male friends instead of being present to your partner, or...whatever it is that you partner disapproves of...) is the probem:

Hopefully you can see something useful in that quote, because it describes normal human behavior that, when one thinks about it, is unhealthy for a good relationship. Especially the relationship you have with yourself.

I agree with you. Its a tough spot to be in. My concern was that he was doing 100% of the compromise and she was doing very little. Their agreement was Thursday nights, yet she still gives him a hard time about it. Doing something because it makes her happy is a great thing, that's a sign of a healthy relationship. Doing something because she's forcing him to is another story. I feel like the sneaking booze is a result of the resentment he has over her controlling everything.

However, in the spirit of the thread, if he wants to cut back/quit for its own merits, than that's the right move to make. Its hard to find anyone who will seriously tell you their life got worse quitting booze.

Is there something else you can do that would give you some independence, but in a healthy way? It sounds like you have an issue with her need for control. This may be something you bring up with your therapist. Maybe even have her suggest ways you can be more independent that she won't get upset with. There's nothing wrong with doing something simply because you like it. All runners will reach a point where it makes no sense to train any more, you aren't getting any faster. But we carry on because we like it. That's enough of a reason, you don't need to quantify it.

She's right though, it is bad for you, so if you want to quit for its own merits, that's a great idea. Quitting because she's forcing you to will just breed resentment, and probably won't work long term. Think forward to when you really want a beer..."my wife doesn't allow it" simply isn't a good enough deterrent, in fact it already isn't. You need to genuinely understand that not drinking is better than drinking if you want it to stick.

I feel this. Definitely part of what makes this hard

It is amazing not to be the center of attention. Take it from someone who used to enjoy it way too much. When people don't notice you, you notice things about them.

So...good luck in your future marriage. And thanks again for recommending "Infinite Jest," which you never did...but I' still enjoying since you brought it up.

Wow - thank you guys so much for helping me process. I recognize that it was a bit ironic to hop on a thread titled "Quitting drinking" (which I am ALL FOR btw... for other people (lol)) to talk about how I don't want to quit. I appreciate that you recognize that I am pretty much putting it out there (real and not a troll - I've been off and on LR for a long time), and your responses show considerable intuition, experience, maturity, and generosity. Thank you. Decades ago I found a wonderful coach through LR, but besides that, this is the most helpful I've ever found LR to be.

You are absolutely correct that there are many dynamics and relationship issues that underlie the drinking issue. The drinking is just one (primary outward) manifestation of those issues. (However, I am a bit surprised to have found myself liking the drinking more than I ever thought I would. Very early on, I told her (honestly) that I couldn't ever see myself being much of a beer drinker because I really didn't care for the taste of it and, of course, it often leads to poor outcomes for a lot of people.)

I admire her quite a bit. She's attractive, tough, incredibly disciplined, intelligent, "good", and a touch spicy. She's not boring - there's never a time that she's not working on or concerned about something. I don't feel very good about myself when I'm around her. While I know that all relationships are conditional to an extent, through her actions, habits, and other indications, she places high value on what a person does / achieves. I also think it is preferable to do well (obviously), but I think a person's primary worth is intrinsically who they are with accomplishments being secondary gravy.

I think it is from this that over a long time, I have come to see her through a little bit of an adversarial prism. It's kind of like when you came to the xc team as freshmen, the 2 main freshman were you and another very good runner. You're friends, but you obviously want to make the travel squad and run well. The other guy is talented and also does all the little things well. In time, you both move up, and there is mutual respect because you know that you're tied together (training, racing for the same team, etc), but there is also always this underlying competition / tension. And, when you're going through a rough patch, the other guy doesn't see it and tells you about what you should be doing better in order to help the team.

I recognized this early on, but I mostly overlooked it, thinking that surely that dynamic would change over time. (And, I am sure it has a little bit, but not enough, imo.)

I think compared to most, our situation is unique, and there is a bit of stress involved. We have a number of children (like double the normal "large family" amount) and the age gap from first to last is about as wide as there is (with one spouse). It's like 3 different families (as young parents, as regular aged parents, and then as old parents). We have a business that we run from home (so we're almost always under the same roof and almost always know where the other is at). The work is such that our main thing takes about 4 months (but working a lot... no time for LR), and the rest of the year is easier. She helps, but does much more of the work with the children, so her workload (along with her personality) is always busy.

Covid was a nightmare for us. We have "survived" (I guess), but it was a major gut punch to the business (and me personally). It was probably a couple of years ago that I started drinking a little more than Thursdays. I've only recently come to accept that I have most likely been going through "depression". I normally wouldn't take anti-depressant medication, but have started. I am not sure I feel much different, though. Obviously, a depressed person is not fun to be around and is likely to have skewed perceptions.

So, I know for certain that I am a notable contributor towards some of our issues. Besides depressed, and maybe related, I have very hidden (but significant) degraded sense of self-esteem (and confidence). If we hung out for years, you probably wouldn't know. I don't tell anyone and assume everyone must struggle with the same. When I am out and about (let's say, going shopping) I am actually quite confident in the general populace (lol). But, when I am around other capable and talented people, I always think they're better. Then, this leads to a downright fear (and near paralysis sometimes) of not being able to provide for the family. I've gotten to the point where I feel unemployable and total failure, and I know that doesn't make much sense, but yet that's where it's at.

Also, I do want A LOT of autonomy (perhaps too much). I stuffed this for a long time, thinking that my wife would allow more (and she has a little), but I gotta figure out something (like you suggest hank jr) that I can do with little-to-no input from her that she would also be OK with. Ironically, it probably could be running again.. I am doubtful I would ever be able to run as much as before. Is it weird (or unhealthy or bad) to feel like you need time and space where nobody else knows where you are? Fairly humorously (imo), she recently said "What more could you want?! I allow you to have as much autonomy as would be good for you!" I don't think we have the same working definition of "autonomy".

Another aspect that I bring to the table that is not easy to deal with is that I am pretty "all-in or nothing". I'll stop short of saying that it is a bi-polar tendency, but when I ran a lot, I did think about it a lot. When the time at work is busy, I am very (overly) focused on that. I know this is a challenge for my wife, especially since her style is 180degrees in the other direction (always doing a lot of different things).

Finally, and this is more of a consequence of depression I think, but I stopped running altogether and have gained a bit of weight. Not a crazy amount so that I couldn't restart running and doing some stuff, but enough to feel really strange about it. I went to a low-key workout group about 6 months ago and was getting smoked by old out-of-shape guys in a "workout" that would have been less than a warm-up some years ago. Total Twilight-Zone moment... like I was getting eaten by zombies in the Walking Dead.

Given all the above, obviously I need to work on my own house, so to speak. I probably should dial it back to just Thursdays if not stop the drinking entirely (at day #8 right now). I should very slowly start back up with some exercise regime. I should work on the self-confidence, etc.

But, at the same time, I don't think it is all me, and I am struggling mightily with the idea of working on myself a lot without her taking a good look at herself (and trying to improve in a few areas).

I think she is unreasonably insecure in a few areas. I have never told her one time if / when I think another female is attractive, or when I think anyone else (other than her or our children) does a good job at something because I can sense her bristling even when I just get close to that.

I wish she would stop making lists about what's fair or not fair... how long she got to spend with friends vs the 3 hours every Thursday... what she got done in a day vs what I got done... etc etc.

I wish she would be more "with me" than competing with me and could see that my wins are, in a way, her wins, too.

I do think that there are control and trust issues. It feels suffocating to me at times.

Generally, I would not give her high marks on listening, and she is not a very good "encourager" (which I didn't know that I would want (or need) so much).

Finally, we both are pretty poor communicators. I stuff things and keep "secrets" while she uses a lot of incredibly indirect speech thinking that I know what she is saying (when really only a total mind-reader could decipher it).

Our marriage counselor has really been honing in on this idea that I keep telling myself "stories" about my wife (that I often feel condemned, accused, judged, and like she is disappointed) which ends up not giving my wife a chance to not do those things. A part of this has merit. A few years ago, there was this one time, where I really overdid it in the yard (lol) and after a couple of days of feeling some very odd chest discomfort, I thought I might really have a serious problem. We almost never go to the doctor, so I felt like when I mentioned it, she would understand that I was really concerned. However, she responded with mentioning about how she had been feeling bad, too! I thought, "This woman obviously doesn't care about me... here I am wondering if I'm had a minor heart attack, and she wants to be competitive even in how bad we feel!?" But, I was telling myself a little bit of a story in that situation and I didn't give her any chance after she whiffed it a little bit at first. On the other hand, I do think I know her really well, and I don't think all the "stories" I tell myself about what she thinks, feels, is disappointed with, etc are wrong.

Anyway, I felt I should quickly mention that the book excerpt you provided, JustMe22, was totally applicable... I think I could relate to all 4 of the bullet points to an extent. And, your short summary at the end was very on-point, I think.

Well, I've gone on at length, and I know I sound like a real whiner (lol). Again, I really appreciate the very grounded comments both of you gave. Despite all the bad vibes and dishing on my wife here, I am very fortunate with her and in other ways. Of course, when talking about issues, it all sounds bad (lol).

Just quickly replying to say my wife is a "one-upper" as well. If I have a bad day, her's was worse, if I got sick, she was sicker. I have literally told her "I'm not comparing war stories right now, I'm trying to talk about me". She's actually just commiserating, but it doesn't come across like that in the moment. I find myself doing it as well (I actually am right now).

It sounds like you have a lot of stuff running through your mind right now (not trying to be dismissive). One of the best things you can do is to cut back on the alcohol so that you can work through it with a clear mind. Alcohol has lingering effects that stick with you after you sober up, namely anxiety/depression. There's really nothing at stake here. I can't imagine sneaking beers in your basement and spending the rest of the night dodging your wife is all that relaxing or fun.

Here's my suggestion, which is what I do personally. Keep your Thursday night and be on the wagon the rest of the week. She doesn't like it (that's ok), but you need something to keep you sane. I look forward to my night "off", and its back to business when I get home. I'm a better husband and father for it. I'd also suggest doing something productive (for you) at random points during the week, doesn't have to be on a schedule, just something here and there to give you some time to be alone/independent.

That’s fair and makes sense. Have you gotten to the AA parts of IJ yet? There’s a lot of good stuff in there about addiction. The writer spent some time going to AA meetings and lived in an addiction recovery house for a bit which inspired a lot of the book.

Stay strong the dynamic certainly changes and for a few weeks at family gatherings or the odd time I was in the bar it felt weird not being more gregarious and engaged but I'm comfortable with it now. I'd say I'm more myself to be honest....engaged and outgoing when I feel it's the place to be. Drinking was a crutch that way to change my natural personality.

96 today.

11 weeks. I spent the last six days on vacation, where I was surrounded by alcohol all day long. I was briefly tempted a couple of times, reminded myself about this thread and reached for the cans of sparking water or Athletic Brewing.

Yes. About 20 hours left to go and really appreciated the "when you think about it, why isn't *everyone* in AA?" passage. It makes sense in the context that everyone who has ever gone to an AA meeting is doing something valuable: trying to be a better person.

Also, I was heartbroken about the passage concerning the crack-addicted pregnant woman who gave birth to a stillborn child, then acted as if the child were normal and healthy. That is the essence of delusion in a nutshell. And it explains how substances can grab ahold of your reasoning and spin it out of control.

Massive congratulations on 11 weeks. 97 days today.

8 days. Made it through the weekend. I feel great.

Here...comsider printing this out and putting it somewhere you can see it, preferably a space between you and the alcohol, and also definitely consider showing It to your wife:

That is a ton of well-earned praise that speaks both volumes about who you are as a man and who you selected as a partner. Even the anxieties you express her underscore her commitment to you. She sounds like a fantastic wife; a worse one would tell you "do whatever you want" and then express hurt when you did so.

Resentments are normal. Communication breakdowns intensify them. Make sure you and your wife are on the same page with your therapist's guidance.

It's OK to tell her that you're scared that you won't be able to provide for her. That's normal to. Your business might fail. You may feel humiliated in front of the children you love and support, unconditionally. You will be OK.

Because empires crumble. Bridges sometimes fall apart without being burned. The worst thing you can do right now, however, if you'll let me extend the metaphor, is set yourself of fire.

Here are some other positive options: enjoy your marriage to it's fullest. Go out with your friends and order a cranberry and soda, then tell them all "I don't drink anymore." If they give you a hard time, let them. Do not let them say anything bad about your wife, because she doesn't deserve it and you really should find new friends if they think that is OK.

For your depression related and confidence issues...consider reversing your trend of not seeking medical attention and ask your gp to screen you for depression/ask outright for a prescription for Prozac (or Zoloft, or any other category of drug that is considered an "SSRI"). They cheap, safe, effective, and help enormously with confidence issues in social situations. If you don't do that, fine, but do consider seeking medical attention for your drinking if you are unable to give it up.

Remember always: you are the only element of this entire sticky situation that cannot he replaced. You can find another wife or different woman in your life. You can get a different job if your business goes under. You cannot get another you. So how you treat yourself, especially the limits you are able to place on self-indulgent behavior that is related to grudge or grievance, matters.

You have already mastered the art of being a grown man. Now you are starting to realize that parts of it suck. But your life doesn't suck, and you can make changes that help you overcome the hurt and worries. Remember the man you are, and do not let that person go.

p.s. (read your post a little more carefully)

So...ask her to take up a new hobby with you. I took up archery with a former partner and it was a blast to go to the range together.

p.p.s.

I don't mean to out you or freak you out, but your post mentioned bipolar disorder. If you have a diagnosis (again, we don't need to know this), I'm guessing that it's type 2, as many successful and driven people share that diagnosis. Unfortunately, about 50-70% of people diagnosed with bipolar disorder also have a substance abuse problem (or, to frame it positively 30-50% don't). You don't sound like you do...yet. I'm familiar enough with bipolar disorder that I want to underscore something important about it: in many cases, it manifests in problems with impulse control (people think that it's major component is "mood swings"/irritability...from what I've seen, that is not the case). That should be more motivation to put the bottle down, as alcohol is another way to loosen inhibitions (and make poor choices with disastrous consequences). If you have this condition, remember that it's treatable and follow through by seeking treatment/taking your already prescribed meds. If you have not been given the diagnosis, consider getting screened for it. Because, like I wrote, a lot of people who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder are alcoholics.

Well done! 14 weeks down today, 98 days. Fastest (no not really fast at all, but still) 5K in 4 years. Felt some further validation from an athletic standpoint for my sobriety. Thanks for all the support and great to hear of all the streaks long and just getting going!

99.

100.

I have been hitting "refresh" all day just to see this post. Congratulations, man. Huge.