Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

As discussed several times in this thread, HR is no a good parameter during a quality session. The reason is very simple as HR increases and increases over time. However, the solution to this problem is, that you can use the avg HR of the last minute of the last rep for the next training unit another day. If the last rep was over 91-92% HRmax it was too intense, and you should do it slower next time.

If you have a good feeling for your body, effort is even better as HR (during the session).

Power is the best parameter for high intensity units, which is equal to pace in an unwindy, flat situation.

Checking in with a status update… tl;dr It’s working for me. YMMV

Results: 2 months in and VO2max is up three ticks to the highest I’ve recorded since getting this watch in April 2020. I don't race much, so this is the best way I have to gauge progress

YMMV: I take beta blockers so VO2max workouts are difficult. I’m naturally endurance inclined (which is magnified by the meds), so high mileage/low intensity rarely moves the needle. The Norwegian porridge seems just right given those constraints.

Workouts: Using Hobbyjogger Ingebrigtsen workouts as inspiration. No doubles and only running four days a week so far. Going to keep doing this until I either stall out or need to up mileage for a long race or something. First month did about 30 min of work per session. Second month shot for 31. Next month I’ll do 32. And so on. Hobbyjogger Ingebrigtsen seems to be topping off at around 45 min of work per session.

Effort: Lactate testing is logistically too complicated where I train (and not to mention pricey) so doing educated guesses on pacing using heart rate, Whoop strain, and perceived effort. This thread was very helpful in discerning where I need to be despite not doing lactate testing.

Shoes: Wear regular shoes for warmups, cooldowns and easy runs; Carbon trainers for work intervals to improve recovery on my old lady legs

Lifting: Lifting sessions of 0-60min daily based on fatigue and recommendations from my lifting app. Lifting to improve some imbalances and for vanity.

Advice: This type of training requires a constrained ego. You will finish the workouts feeling less than satisfied. If you grew up like me in the era of “if you didn’t see god, you weren’t running hard enough in the workout”, it’s a big mind shift. When in doubt, run slower than you want to.

Schedule:
Mon: workout + lift lower
Tues: lift upper
Wed: workout + lift lower
Thurs: lift upper
Fri: workout + lift lower
Sat: easy + lift full body
Sun: lift upper

Honestly at this overall volume/frequency you're probably better off just running more easy days before increasing sub threshold volume.

Wow, just finished this thread. Thanks so much to all the contributors, like jiggy, shirtboy , Hard2find but special mention to sirpoc to put what he has learned in a structure way. It is as good as any book I've read this thread and finally managed to find you on Strava via the later pages of the thread! That is really interesting in the sense there really doesn't appear to be a magic session, just lots of the same but the progression is very clear.

I wonder if you guys ever made that separate group somewhere else as this thread has died down? I would be very interested to join. If hobby joggers aren't tearing up their plans and trying this training, they should be. I see why people in this thread say you need incredible discipline. I think maybe most people will run too hard.

You're most welcome, glad I could be of any help.

Regarding your question, we still haven't made a separate group, which I think we ought to do.

interesting

Do you think a Strava group would be good? It could be an invite only situation and people can dm the admin their strava profile name (for privacy purposes).

-Also not sure if there's a dm feature on letsrun

I figured it would be good to see each other's workout, comment and ask questions in the group directly. Just for when this thread fades in the letsrun ether.

Just finished this whole damn thread. It’s an absolute gold mine. My thanks goes out to all who have contributed.

I’m going to be spending the next several months doing this method of training. Hope to gain some insight and see how it works out.

Background: 42 years old, started running around 6 years ago. Never huge into volume (biggest week ever was 53 miles). 1:20 HM and 17:06 are relevant recent PRs.

I’ve had a lactate meter for a while now but never really used it. Went on a super easy run the other night (5 miles, 8:45 avg) and lactate was 0.9mmol. Went to the track to a threshold workout today. I’ve been doing one a week usually (8x1000 around 3:50/k, 60sec rest). I measured after the 4th today and lactate was 4.7 so I slowed down (4:05ish/k) for the last 4. Measured again and was 4.1.

They felt pretty damn easy. According to my race times it seems like the last 4 reps are slow. Should I keep at this pace or keep them closer to HM pace? Thanks. Will keep this thread, or any other group that forms, updated

You should add sirpoc on Strava. He seems quite helpful and has replied to a few people on there as well. He is not hadd to find, based on his telegram he posted here and then just find him via KI. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done that lol

I found it most reassuring as another has already mentioned, there is no extra secret that others aren't telling us. Much like jakobs hobby jogger brother, just lots and lots of the same thing over and over again, with a really slow ramping up over time. I also agree how much of a gold mine this thread as been. A rare find for modern letsrun.

I have created a club on Strava and invited Sirpoc. Feel free to send a request and I will add you.

strava.com

Norwegian Singles Approach

Discussion platform based on the Letsrun thread 'Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage'

Link:www.strava.com/clubs/1175805

Great recent PRs you got going over there.

As for your question regarding the pace, assuming that lactate readings are accurate (no sweat contamination), I'd run them closer a tad bit under 4 mmol/L, whatever that pace might be (it would be different at different rep durations).

Now of course everyone has a different lactate threshold, as the literature states that the range is between 2-6 mmol/L, which means there is quiet some variation in where the exponential curve might rise between people. This is the value of establishing an individual lactate profile (i.e. stage test).

Based on your race times, your Critical Velocity (CV) is around 3:34/km, so i would keep 3:50/k for your 8x1000m.

As i mentioned over 100 times on this forum lactate levels are not transferable from athlete to athlete! If you dont believe me, even Jan Olbrecht had to learn that lesson and mentioned it in a talk. So guys stop comparing your lactate levels to others, that is beginner level.

So basically that's Tempo Pace from Tinman calculator

Indeed. We hobby runners are fascinated by the belief in the magic workout. The words "Norwegian" or "double threshold" are currently the blockbusters. Anyone who says they train according to Jakob's methods is adding some magic to their daily routine. Anyone who then uses a lactate meter - in full view of the neighborhood - or leaves the screen on in the office, showing the lactate curves, is undoubtedly more respected. Don´t do cruise intervals or execute your tempo run properly - you need to say "Norwegian approach". That's abracadabra.

WTF are you babbling about?

It lands in between 'Tinmans Tempo and Threshold' (marketing names) and let me explain why.

Let's do the math (no Tinman marketing names needed for that):

We assume CV=03:34min/km= 16.8kph =100%CV

For 1000m intervals (3-4min), 95% of CV (95%CV) is a good starting point (Norwegian method). That would be 0,95 * 16.8kph= 16.0kph which is 03:45min/k. So a little bit faster as i recommended. However user chicken had already 4.7mmol at 03:50min/k, so my thinking was that this pace is already fast enough.

More on CV is here

Am in my 6th week of training after ~5 years off my, so my data or progression is not a contribution to this thread yet.
But as "familiar situation" posted he is in a, well, similar situation this might be worth posting:

- I have no lactate meter available
- rather train on a fixed 700m lap in the forest by time
- and bought a used Forerunner 35 to at least collect data from a Polar H10 strap
- tried to get a useful analysis out of GoldenCheetah but ~5h were not enough to get anywhere with the software
- rather found out that the free account of runalize.com fetches runs from Garmin Connect , does TRIMP, CTL and time-in-zone (pace or HR) for individual activities as well as grouped by date

All that data is of course not a substitute for lactate readings, but a good enough ballpark to tell me how fast to run my "sub thresholds".

Signed up for 5000m end of September, because at the end of the day I want to measure "race results" -- or I should maybe better say "improvements of my time over officially measured distances".

@fusio nice idea - saves me using sirpoc's account as a q&a!