Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

You have a severe brain disorder swede, you are not healthy.

I think lots of points on what coggan has said.

IMO some of the main issues off the top of my head:

Firstly - and this is very important. What is FTP? For a while it was an hour, then he doubled down on the fact that it was the power a rider could sustain in a 40km time trial (which is what he said 20 years ago and has now gone back to) This is where issues start IMO. As the time for that can be very different, for a large number of reasons. For example, I have an insanely low CDA, so the time it takes me to complete a 40km time trial in about 48 minutes, isn't that reflective in my opinion that my talent level means , that's how long it should take me.

Secondly, I don't really like how normalised power works. In fact I don't like it at all. There's too many ways to trick the system. There's easily ways if you go outside and hit the hills, where you can do training sessions that hit TSS of over 100 per hour. Normalised power "busters". Not sure I really like TSB either. But, Coggan's reply is always it's been 20 years and is there a better system? The man is arrogant , but, he does have a point. But then he tries to be clever and say people are idiots for calling them zones, that they are "training levels".

But other things as well, he will say the rest doesn't matter for example of vo2 max sessions, I've seen him claim before. Or he will not really explain why TSS probably under represents these sessions or dismissive of the evidence or the much greater fatigue they produce (therefore TSB).

Also how he dismisses the aerolab in Golden Cheetah, despite myself and others having great success with it. In my opinion he doesn't understand it. But his science background can't accept hobby cyclists in the UK know more than him (which I would 100% stand by, even if I didn't understand the science behind it, I for sure knew how to analyse the data to reduce my cda and make myself faster).

The fact that he's supposed to be a scientist, but is an online troll lol some of his distain to others. For example , mention Seiler to him "what Seiler does for a living, I do as a hobby" (referencing the fact, this actually, isn't the direct field he has most of his published papers in). Basically he's just a weird man. That's all off the top of my head .

He is clearly a really clever guy, but I don't know what he brings to the table at this point. I think, personally, someone who has the real time, drive and understanding could make a better system than the current one. Maybe even something running specific. But, having said all of that - I do still think on a basic level and especially with this kind of training, the running version of sweetspot - the system does actually work quite well and you can still learn an awful lot from the PMC.

Not impressive for a male runner a couple of years over 30.

Former top runner, if you are not the famous Swedish coaching guru JS, what do you think is the most effective way to improve on low mileage?

- are you using a different athlete profile for your running?

- your "workflow" to import from running devices

- basic settings for a newbie runner user of GoldenCheetah (like zones, measures that some running-related "algorithm" might depend on)

For a target audience of first time uesers, for example like me: I had planned to train just with a stopwatch, but ordered an Polar H10 strap. Installed GoldenCheetah 3.6. What are your Top 5 tipps for me to do in GoldenCheetah?

Combination of things. Short reps weekly interval at 5 k speed, threshold intervals at high gear not too slow.Easy steady runs at individual best pace.

Revolutionary stuff, this. Please start a new thread for further in-depth discussion!

Oh and of course I am J.S!Don't you see the lack of spaces when using punctuation in previous posts?And how I use my unique expressions like 'easy steady runs at individual best pace' or 'the most effective way to improve on low mileage'? 👋🧙‍♂️🇸🇪

nt

Great thread, thanks everyone for the contributions. I've been doing something a similar but a little easier than many of you here since this spring - each week a time-based threshold workout like (8x(3',1'), 6x(4',1'), 16x(1',1'), etc), a mini workout like 75' with 30-45' steady or 10x45" hill reps, and then a easy/steady long run, on ~45mpw. The mini workout is a newer addition, I used to just run easy 75 mins.

"Problem" is the paces are much slower than I'd think are reasonable. For example this spring most of the 3-5 min reps were around 6:50 pace but I raced 10mi at 6:30/mi (with a pretty strong negative split too) so that was a bit slower than hm pace. And now in the summer it's more like 7-7:15. The workouts feel like a decent effort, happy to be done them and I'm tired the next day but not like "beat up". No clue about lactate - as far as HR, it is maybe just getting to threshold HR in the last rep or two, but usually a bit lower. Most of the 10mi race was at ~175bpm and the intervals are typically in the 165-175 range. I run the workouts by effort though and check HR after.

The minute reps are the only ones that line up pretty well with races, longer reps fall off even more. And my easy pace is very slow, 9-10 min/mi avg typically, maybe finishing an easy run in the mid 8s if weather is good. A 45 mile week takes me 7 hours. So I'm guessing its mostly just an endurance problem. I ran a 3:18 marathon in '21 and probably am not a whole lot better now, certainly not 3:00 like vdot suggests.

Are these paces slow enough that it's a problem? Seems lots of people train slower than they race but this seems excessive. It seems like the workouts aren't progressing, even though there is no way I could have done that 1:05 10mi race a couple months prior. Is it time to move to 2 of these workouts a week? Tried it a little bit ago and ended up pretty tired after just 1.5 weeks. Not exactly sure about current fitness, doing a 5k in mid October to get a better idea. Have a trail half marathon in a couple weeks so didn't want to do a time trial yet. But ultimately training for a november marathon.

You're doing two threshold days a week?

I think the idea of this thread, sub-threshold in singles, is to gradually extend the time spent running at threshold. So, three threshold days a week for a start, then adding threshold time to each of those days.

Really good forum. Was just wondering two things.

1. Is it possible to train using threshold without a lactate measure. I.e without testing for threshold and just going off heat rate

2. I train with a group that does faster intervals once a week. A typical session might be 3 (4x400) at 5k down 3k pace. Can I run intervals at lt1 on my second session day or does it not make sense to mix and match like this. Do you need to choose between polarised training or threshold to get the most effective stimulus.

Good post. The first author of the paper, Arturo Casado was a Spanish elite 1500m runner (European Champion in 2010).

Answering point 2 first, that typical session, 5k to 3k race pace might be above sub threshold effort depending on recovery between 400s. The idea of sub threshold is not going for the most effective stimulus, but a stimulus that's sustainable for a once a day runner.

Point 2, yes you don't need a lactate meter to do sub threshold sessions but using heart rate has deficiencies due to the lag. I would go off effort/pace. For example KI's 5 x 2000m on the treadmill for 1.9 lactate was at 3:35/km which is slower than his half marathon race pace of 3:28/km. If your intervals are 400s you could run faster pace for the same lactate/effort.

I’m basically the same runner as you. My approach has been to use more frequent but bite size workouts, so for example:

instead of once per week 8x3on / 1 off

twice per week 5x3on / 1 off (more time at thresh, especially when you include rests). Mix up the interval times like you already seem to be doing. the other thing that’s been important for me to avoid over doing things is either longer rests or even slower paces. I play around with this, going as short as 1 min and as long as 2 mins between reps. Break them up into sets if needed.

the point with “respecting my aerobic weakness” is that it’s going to take me longer than sirpoc (semi pro cyclist) to recover aerobically from a given rep. So you need to account for that in your overall approach to the workouts.

idgaf about my easy pace.

I’m seeing my HRs for a given pace come down, which I take as a good sign. Time trials / races this fall will give more data.

Actually, keeping the rest period short (i.e. one minute) keeps the workout's emphasis on the aerobic system. Longer rests would allow for a greater contribution from the anaerobic system.

For sure they would be more aerobic. Combination of working slightly faster paces but without going over the edge (need longer rest or hr gets too high and feels obviously too high). And other workouts with intentionally slower rep paces and shorter rest intervals.

the most important thing for me has been realizing “you are what you are” in terms of fitness and accepting that my paces will be really slow to start but getting a point to build from .

Bumping the thread to see how everybody is progressing.

Any racing or training updates?

I ran 4:47 at 5th Avenue. Very pleased with the result on a short buildup (late July). I mixed in two workouts with a little bit of speed (sets of 4-3-2 with 90" rest), tossed in some 200 strides at the end of workouts, but otherwise it was mostly workouts in the general mix here. Repeat 400s, 600s, 800s and 1000s w/ 1' rest. Usually ~ 6,000 meters of work. Got me into shape quick and race pace felt doable.