A stupid question, not worth responding to. But here is a more relevant question, which you have so far ducked - in a country rife with doping, what role has it played in their success?
Stupid question for someone who has absolutely no interest in seriously discussing the Kenyan running success.
A small group is able to do something athletically which big parts of the rest seem just not capable to do. What could be the reason for this? Is it partly because of the "natural running" of Kenyans in youth compared to more "developed" parts of the globe? This seems also to be true for cross country running, in which Kenyans were even more successful than on the track. Is it also some psychological thing? Or because of the lighter body structure of many Kenyans compared to "whites"? What else? Or is it just not true? But many Europeans have stated over the years they just can't do it. And if some European does it the "Kenyan way" he sometimes get's in trouble.
I know it's impossible to have a serious discussion with you - BUT STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER POSTERS.
I have not ducked anything, stop posting the contrary.
You just ducked the question - again. What has been the role of doping in what you claim is Kenyan "success"?
Many Kenyans dope, maybe Kenya is the worst in this currently. And I have little doubt that this doping is helpful for the runners who do so. By how much? Impossible to answer such a question. The studies to the subject seem to be scientifically "unfinished" and give extremely different results. Up to five minutes in the Marathon? More? I have no idea.
But Kenyans are not the only ones who are doping (Armstronglivs completely contradicts himself regularly when he states practically everyone is a doper but also states the Kenyan success almost solely is the product of doping). And even if we assume only Kenyans and every Kenyan dopes (which for sure is nonsense) and subtract five minutes from any Kenyan Marathon time - they still would be among the leading countries.
If we assume that the enormous "early" success which Kenya has had just a few years after they started to compete internationally was not the product of doping - than it's not a big stretch to conclude that the Kenyan success today also is not mainly the result of doping.
I have said doping is widespread in the sport but it is apparent that Kenyans dope more than most other countries. Athletics Kenya has virtually conceded as much, with their public comments fearing a national ban.
You are also wrong about the degree of success Kenyans had in the '60's and 70's. Athletes like Elliott, Snell, Halberg, Clarke, Schul Mills and Ryun were at the top in the '60's(with Bikila and the Ethiopians coming through in the marathon), and in the 70's we saw a continued NZ presence at the top with Walker, Quax and Dixon, Finns with Viren and Vasala, Bayi the Tanzanian and then English athletes in Ovett and Coe - which continued into the 80's. Kenyans were in the mix during this latter period but they weren't the best by any means. That had to wait the arrival of EPO.
Stupid question for someone who has absolutely no interest in seriously discussing the Kenyan running success.
A small group is able to do something athletically which big parts of the rest seem just not capable to do. What could be the reason for this? Is it partly because of the "natural running" of Kenyans in youth compared to more "developed" parts of the globe? This seems also to be true for cross country running, in which Kenyans were even more successful than on the track. Is it also some psychological thing? Or because of the lighter body structure of many Kenyans compared to "whites"? What else? Or is it just not true? But many Europeans have stated over the years they just can't do it. And if some European does it the "Kenyan way" he sometimes get's in trouble.
I know it's impossible to have a serious discussion with you - BUT STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER POSTERS.
I have not ducked anything, stop posting the contrary.
You just ducked the question - again. What has been the role of doping in what you claim is Kenyan "success"?
You are constantly ducking many questions - and claiming others do it. Completely insane - there hasn't been a bigger liar in this forum than you. And this includes the constant liar Coevett. I have answered your question several times.
Kenya before 1980 was "just another country" - I havn't seen any clarifying from you, that your comment was completely nonsense.
List some of those other African countries who were on Kenya's level (54 African records from Kenyans compared to 19 by the 50+ other African nations combined). Guinea-Bissau? Seychelles? Gabon? And - no - Tanzania also was FAR from Kenyas level before 1980.
After the 1979 season 19 Kenyans and 1 Tanzanian have run sub 1:47.8 for 800m 15 Kenyans and 2 Tanzanians have run sub 3:41.5 for 1500m 16 Kenyans and 2 Tanzanians have run sub 13:36.6 for 5000m 15 Kenyans and 1 Tanzanian have run sub 28:42.8 for 10000m 17 Kenyans and 1 Tanzanian have run sub 8:39.2 for the steeple
At the end of the 1970s, Kenya was by far the most successful distance running nation from Africa - at the extreme top and in depth.
At the world level, USA, UK, maybe Finland were challengers. But looking at medals, records, all-time lists at the very top, Kenya also comes up as no. 1. Looking little bit deeper, those other countries might have been ahead of Kenya. But Kenya already before 1980 was extremely successful. This is not my opinion, it is a fact.
You are also wrong about the degree of success Kenyans had in the '60's and 70's. Athletes like Elliott, Snell, Halberg, Clarke, Schul Mills and Ryun were at the top in the '60's(with Bikila and the Ethiopians coming through in the marathon), and in the 70's we saw a continued NZ presence at the top with Walker, Quax and Dixon, Finns with Viren and Vasala, Bayi the Tanzanian and then English athletes in Ovett and Coe - which continued into the 80's. Kenyans were in the mix during this latter period but they weren't the best by any means. That had to wait the arrival of EPO.
Have you even read what I have written to you several times? I was talking from 1964 onwards. You are listing athletes from 6 different countries!!
Why don't you list the most successful runner at all from this period?
Keino has set world records over 3000m (still a world class time) and 5000m. Has become Olympic champion in the 1500m and the steeple and also medaled in the 5000m (only runner since Zatopek who has medaled in three events at the Olympics). He also was the 3rd fastest ever in the 10000m. Have you heard of him? Looking at the full spectrum from 800m to 10000m (including steeple) Kenya was the most successful country at the very top - do you just understand this sentence? It seems you don't. To contradict you list runners from 6 different countries. Maybe you don't even understand the meaning of "country"?
You just ducked the question - again. What has been the role of doping in what you claim is Kenyan "success"?
You are constantly ducking many questions - and claiming others do it. Completely insane - there hasn't been a bigger liar in this forum than you. And this includes the constant liar Coevett. I have answered your question several times.
Kenya before 1980 was "just another country" - I havn't seen any clarifying from you, that your comment was completely nonsense.
List some of those other African countries who were on Kenya's level (54 African records from Kenyans compared to 19 by the 50+ other African nations combined). Guinea-Bissau? Seychelles? Gabon? And - no - Tanzania also was FAR from Kenyas level before 1980.
After the 1979 season 19 Kenyans and 1 Tanzanian have run sub 1:47.8 for 800m 15 Kenyans and 2 Tanzanians have run sub 3:41.5 for 1500m 16 Kenyans and 2 Tanzanians have run sub 13:36.6 for 5000m 15 Kenyans and 1 Tanzanian have run sub 28:42.8 for 10000m 17 Kenyans and 1 Tanzanian have run sub 8:39.2 for the steeple
At the end of the 1970s, Kenya was by far the most successful distance running nation from Africa - at the extreme top and in depth.
At the world level, USA, UK, maybe Finland were challengers. But looking at medals, records, all-time lists at the very top, Kenya also comes up as no. 1. Looking little bit deeper, those other countries might have been ahead of Kenya. But Kenya already before 1980 was extremely successful. This is not my opinion, it is a fact.
You are also wrong about the degree of success Kenyans had in the '60's and 70's. Athletes like Elliott, Snell, Halberg, Clarke, Schul Mills and Ryun were at the top in the '60's(with Bikila and the Ethiopians coming through in the marathon), and in the 70's we saw a continued NZ presence at the top with Walker, Quax and Dixon, Finns with Viren and Vasala, Bayi the Tanzanian and then English athletes in Ovett and Coe - which continued into the 80's. Kenyans were in the mix during this latter period but they weren't the best by any means. That had to wait the arrival of EPO.
Have you even read what I have written to you several times? I was talking from 1964 onwards. You are listing athletes from 6 different countries!!
Why don't you list the most successful runner at all from this period?
Keino has set world records over 3000m (still a world class time) and 5000m. Has become Olympic champion in the 1500m and the steeple and also medaled in the 5000m (only runner since Zatopek who has medaled in three events at the Olympics). He also was the 3rd fastest ever in the 10000m. Have you heard of him? Looking at the full spectrum from 800m to 10000m (including steeple) Kenya was the most successful country at the very top - do you just understand this sentence? It seems you don't. To contradict you list runners from 6 different countries. Maybe you don't even understand the meaning of "country"?
Keino was one runner. Any of the others I mentioned achieved as much if not more. Even during his era there were better faster runners.
In the '60's and '70's Kenyans might have taken some of the places but the winners and wr holders generally came from other countries. Until Kenyans doped for breakfast - as they clearly do.
Stupid question for someone who has absolutely no interest in seriously discussing the Kenyan running success.
A small group is able to do something athletically which big parts of the rest seem just not capable to do. What could be the reason for this? Is it partly because of the "natural running" of Kenyans in youth compared to more "developed" parts of the globe? This seems also to be true for cross country running, in which Kenyans were even more successful than on the track. Is it also some psychological thing? Or because of the lighter body structure of many Kenyans compared to "whites"? What else? Or is it just not true? But many Europeans have stated over the years they just can't do it. And if some European does it the "Kenyan way" he sometimes get's in trouble.
I know it's impossible to have a serious discussion with you - BUT STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER POSTERS.
I have not ducked anything, stop posting the contrary.
You just ducked the question - again. What has been the role of doping in what you claim is Kenyan "success"?
From 1956 - the year you describe as a breakthrough for Kenya - to 1980, what gold medals did Kenya win in the Olympics from the 800m to the marathon, and what world records did it hold? It appears only 3 golds in 24 years - Keino in a fluke win at altitude in the 1500 at Mexico, and Temu in the 10k, and then Keino in the steeple at Munich. Keino briefly held the wr for the 5k that got obliterated by Clarke, and the 3k that few raced. Every other gold and wr from the 800 to the marathon was from a non-Kenyan in that era. That isn't - wasn't - the world no.1 running nation.
You are the only sick person here, having an obsessive need to prove that Kenyans are an offshoot of humanity, and have a special adaptation for running (and clearing the water jump), despite 250 odd doping busts and 25 last year alone.
You are the only sick person here, having an obsessive need to prove that Kenyans are an offshoot of humanity, and have a special adaptation for running (and clearing the water jump), despite 250 odd doping busts and 25 last year alone.
I know that you hate correct informations when they don't fit your agenda.
Kenya was the no. 1 running nation before 1980 (definitely at the very top). Was the only reason for this doping?
Kenyans have set 54 African records between 64 and 79, the rest of Africa combined 19. Was doping the only reason for this?
In this period Kenya has won the most medals of the Olympics, was the dominating nation at the Commonwelth Games, has by far set the most world records (Armstronglivs: Others have set the records...)
How do you explain that dozens and dozens of Kenyans since decades have cleared the water jump in a manner almost all "whites" just can't do? Why don't you just answer instead of replying with your usual ridiculous "offshoot of humanity"?
800m: Boit 0.07s over the world record
1500m: Jipcho 0.9s over the world record
1 Mile: Jipcho 1.0s over the world record
3000m: Keino and Rono world records
5000m: Keino and Rono world records
10000m: Kimobwa and Rono world records
steeple: Jipcho and Rono world records
No other country comes close to those numbers. Armstronglivs sums it up by "others were setting world records". What's your comment to this pure lie (alongside of many others) of your friend?
For clarity's sake could you please list to doping stats as well. Thank you.
I have no informations about this for the period 1964 - 1979, sorry. Do you think the astonishing Kenyan success in those years was only the result of doping? Which doping?
From 1956 - the year you describe as a breakthrough for Kenya - to 1980, what gold medals did Kenya win in the Olympics from the 800m to the marathon, and what world records did it hold? It appears only 3 golds in 24 years - Keino in a fluke win at altitude in the 1500 at Mexico, and Temu in the 10k, and then Keino in the steeple at Munich. Keino briefly held the wr for the 5k that got obliterated by Clarke, and the 3k that few raced. Every other gold and wr from the 800 to the marathon was from a non-Kenyan in that era. That isn't - wasn't - the world no.1 running nation.
So no response from slowwer. He can't dispute these facts.
But once more - with the question he refuses to answer - what role has doping played in Kenya, since it is now a known international basket case?
In the '60's and '70's Kenyans might have taken some of the places but the winners and wr holders generally came from other countries. Until Kenyans doped for breakfast - as they clearly do.
You are just sick, pure insanity.
It's unbelievable how one person can change the truth in such a way. You are a pure liar.
800m: Boit no. 2 all-time
1000m: Boit no.2 all-time
1500m: Keino no. 2 all-time
1 Mile: Keino: no. 2 all-time
3000m: Keino and Rono world record (the latter lasted until 1989)
5000m: Keino and Rono world record
10000m: Kimobwa and Rono world record (the latter lasted until 1984)
steeple: Jipcho and Rono world record (the latter lasted until 1989)
and it's obvious now that you havn't understood the meaning of country
I have answered your question many times. I can't help that usually you don't read the posts you are answering to and when you do, that you don't understand just the easiest sentences.
I have wasted so much time with an obviously ill person full of hate.
Not a single doubt anymore that you are worse than a pure liar than Coevett, even he would admit at this point that he was wrong.
Only one of them was an Olympic champion. Like most Kenyans then, they were being beaten by better runners from other countries. We can see why they chose to dope in their droves.
You are the only sick person here, having an obsessive need to prove that Kenyans are an offshoot of humanity, and have a special adaptation for running (and clearing the water jump), despite 250 odd doping busts and 25 last year alone.
He continually refuses to see the elephant in the room, which is that Kenya has been shown to be one of the worst dopers since the Cold War.
- Individual riders or a group of them can't succeed without X, Y, Z or doping, ergo they are contributing factors.
- In the case of Basque cyclists, doping (or different doping patterns in Spain vs. rest of the world) only partly explains their overrepresentation in pro cycling particularly when they were some 6 % of the Spanish population but were close to half of the Spanish pro cyclists (if Dan Coyle's figures are even roughly correct, he has no incentive to lie) having even a Basque pro cycling team.
The second point was crucial and clear for everyone except you three posts ago, and if you still have trouble understanding it, there is little I can do to help you. 😭😢😥
Studies have found little or no evidence that East African success in distance running is due to any 'special adaption' through living at altitude.
Because we rely on a general measurement of population differentiation, our approach is also unable to test if endurance running evolved as an adaptation or should be seen as a by-product of neutral demographic processes. Another possibility is that adaptation to high-altitude favors some East African populations in endurance events, even though the direct relationship between being born in high-altitude and increased endurance performance is controversial [81]. We found only one gene, RYR2, in the Oromo list, that has been previously associated with high-altitude adaptation in studies involving East African (Amhara) populations [82], and another, LIPE-AS1, whose target, LIPE, was shown to affect survival rates in Drosophila exposed to low oxygen conditions [83]. However, while the Amhara are usually considered as a “model population” for studying high-altitude adaptation, they are not overrepresented among Ethiopian elite endurance athletes [2]. Finally, there were no enriched GWAS traits associated with high-altitude adaptation or hypoxia in neither Kalenjin nor Oromo. Taken together, it seems unlikely that high-altitude adaptation in East Africans is the major driver of endurance running success in these populations.
'Genetic differentiation in East African ethnicities and its relationship with endurance running success' (May 2022)
You are the only sick person here, having an obsessive need to prove that Kenyans are an offshoot of humanity, and have a special adaptation for running (and clearing the water jump), despite 250 odd doping busts and 25 last year alone.
He continually refuses to see the elephant in the room, which is that Kenya has been shown to be one of the worst dopers since the Cold War.
More Kenyan busts revealed yesterday, including Olympic athlete Saurani, who is also training partner of Olympic and World Champion Korir, and both coached by 88 Olympic Champion Ereng. This man has no shame.
You are the only sick person here, having an obsessive need to prove that Kenyans are an offshoot of humanity, and have a special adaptation for running (and clearing the water jump), despite 250 odd doping busts and 25 last year alone.
He continually refuses to see the elephant in the room, which is that Kenya has been shown to be one of the worst dopers since the Cold War.