Does this make sense? Why does the exact same interval workout at the same pace (20x400@5k) when done on tired legs produce less lactate than when done on fresh legs??
Of course you would expect to feel like you are pushing harder to hit 5k pace on tired legs. But if you are still hitting the same pace, why is less lactate being produced when the legs are tired?
Were you measuring lactate correctly? Do you have an explanation? This seems to be the opposite of what intuitively makes sense. How much of a difference are you talking about?
Assuming that thrashed legs imply fatigued and in a low glycogen state… There’s been multiple research studies done (cue lexel with link to paper haha) that compare metabolic response in a normal glycogen state to a low glycogen state. During exercise, the normal glycogen state lead to a release of lactate from the muscle. In contrast, the low glycogen state resulted in a small uptake of lactate. The conclusion is basically that the rate of glycolysis is higher in a normal glycogen state compared to a low glycogen state.
Thanks for the explanation, but on the surface, I find it difficult to accept. If, as you say, at the same given relatively high intensity, there is insufficient, readily available glycogen, then somethings got to give. Either the metabolic pathway goes ‘backward’ consuming fat, or it goes ‘forward’ and more anaerobic.
The former has byproducts of CO2 and water. The latter results in even more lactate. But if the former is possible (i.e., maintain same high intensity but strictly at higher percentage of fat-burning aerobic metabolism), then it seems that would be ideal, and we would consequently want to go into workouts and races in a glycogen depleted state, no? But then we would bonk, so we would NOT be able to maintain the high intensity.
then it seems that would be ideal, and we would consequently want to go into workouts and races in a glycogen depleted state, no? But then we would bonk, so we would NOT be able to maintain the high intensity.
Wait a second, maybe the objective, and one of the unknown secrets to this training, is to purposely go into the threshold workouts (but NOT races) in a glycogen depleted state! So what if you start ‘bonking’ the workout; you may not be able to maintain pace, but just back-off. (Note, that is not the same as Canefis’ contention where he was maintaining 5k pace, whether on tired legs or fresh legs.)
This is happen to me many times and you can find respectfull athletes (can listen a podcast regarding subject matter). This is a trap where many runners may fall: you feel light and fresh and overpush by lactate (but must slow down and control your speed/ego)
I do not have any explanations about this phenomen, I did many tests, the best days are when you feel moderate soreness, but able to hit and kick desired pace with exact needed lactate level, we do not talk about a peak period.
This is happen to me many times and you can find respectfull athletes (can listen a podcast regarding subject matter). This is a trap where many runners may fall: you feel light and fresh and overpush by lactate (but must slow down and control your speed/ego)
I do not have any explanations about this phenomen, I did many tests, the best days are when you feel moderate soreness, but able to hit and kick desired pace with exact needed lactate level, we do not talk about a peak period.
Your explanation is incomplete, or inconsistent with what you said earlier, which was, I repeat, whether on trashed or fresh legs, you hit 20x400 @5k pace . You didn’t mention anything about having to slow down, only that you produced less lactate on the trashed legs.
More to add, I can tell you another things: when you just started to use method in early base, PM session like 20÷25×400 you can start with @20K pace and finish after several weeks @5K with the same lactate level and feelings in your legs/body will be completely different and not correlating directly with your lactate level.
So, once again, impossible to set correct pace of the threshold without a device, otherwise in early phase of training you may overdue and in late phases of training you may underperform.
So, once again, impossible to set correct pace of the threshold without a device, otherwise in early phase of training you may overdue and in late phases of training you may underperform.
On the contrary, all my research so far indicates that if one’s volume is below 70-80 miles/wk, then it is overblown to try and modulate intensity with the precision of a (relatively expensive and logistically cumbersome) lactate meter, when a HR monitor/strap will more than suffice.
I wrote correctly in the first post: "on trashed legs" lactate can be lower and you must push harder and able to push faster pace. On the "fresh legs" lactate can be higher and you must to slow down. The good indication of training is when you feel a moderate soreness, but hit consistently all reps with desired pace and of course by lactate level under control. This is like an indication that your body build "a solid layer of the pace" at correct lactate level.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
This is happen to me many times and you can find respectfull athletes (can listen a podcast regarding subject matter). This is a trap where many runners may fall: you feel light and fresh and overpush by lactate (but must slow down and control your speed/ego)
I do not have any explanations about this phenomen, I did many tests, the best days are when you feel moderate soreness, but able to hit and kick desired pace with exact needed lactate level, we do not talk about a peak period.
Your explanation is incomplete, or inconsistent with what you said earlier, which was, I repeat, whether on trashed or fresh legs, you hit 20x400 @5k pace . You didn’t mention anything about having to slow down, only that you produced less lactate on the trashed legs.
Well that's this thread ruined first JS then Canefis.
Canefis coming to this thread is going to slaughter it. For those who aren't aware, he has no clue whatsoever about what he's talking about, thinks doping is OK and basically trashed himself every single time he tried to train . It's the absolute opposite of this thread and he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to lactate. It's simply drivel and nonsense.
His thread with JS coaching him is the all time classic absolute cluster this forum. Him coming to this knowledgeable thread is the end of it. For real. The guy is like JS probably a sociopath.
Thanks for the explanation, but on the surface, I find it difficult to accept. If, as you say, at the same given relatively high intensity, there is insufficient, readily available glycogen, then somethings got to give. Either the metabolic pathway goes ‘backward’ consuming fat, or it goes ‘forward’ and more anaerobic.
The former has byproducts of CO2 and water. The latter results in even more lactate. But if the former is possible (i.e., maintain same high intensity but strictly at higher percentage of fat-burning aerobic metabolism), then it seems that would be ideal, and we would consequently want to go into workouts and races in a glycogen depleted state, no? But then we would bonk, so we would NOT be able to maintain the high intensity.
Can you cite the paper?
I was replying to this question of yours:
“Everything I’ve seen so far on taking lactate measurements makes intuitive sense; i.e., if the session feels harder to hit pace (e.g., due to weather, a hillier course, etc.) then it results in higher levels of lactate being produced. So if the session feels harder due to tired legs, why would that result in lower lactate levels?”
Specifically, how a session can feel harder but result in a lower blood lactate level. I wasn’t necessarily commenting on the claim that the pace was indeed the same, but it could be depending how the workout is structured (i.e. sufficient recovery).
To answer your question. Yes, the metabolic pathway in this case did regress in the lower glycogen state leg to more fat and less carbohydrates being oxidized as a result. The lower glycogen leg also experienced a higher rate of glucose uptake. So, no you don’t want to go into a race carb depleted haha.
I can delete all post here, do not panic. I do not care what you believe or not, just shared experience with lactate device and double threshold training method which I use. You can find this information in podcasts and google, youtube and so on. For one cycle of 26 weeks it helped me to drop 2min of my PB @10km and still not reach full potential.
I put my 50c. Does not matter that you all know me for my bad experience with guess who... I will not put his name here. But anyway, I want to tell from my small jogger experience with double threshold methods and lactate pro2, it is almost impossible to spot on sessions without a device. I told many times on letsrun: once you got a device and used it many times, then you will know where are your magic numbers. Device has shown me, that some LT sessions like 20×400@5K can be less lactate on thrashed legs (and you must push harder) than 20x400@5k on super fresh legs (where you must slow down despite your ego), this is very hard to accept and understand just by your feeling without device.
I kindy recommend to buy this device, it defenitely will help to understand better all your overal training and reaction of your body.
Bump
Interesting to see you back! Another strange character of lets run past.
Totally disagree with this though. Both sirpoc and Kristoffer Ingebrigtsten have shown you can easily target paces and basically just use the lactate meter to spot check for analysis at the end. Sirpoc I believe doesn't even use the meter now I do not think and KI is only using it to check at the end of his sessions to add to his log, not necessarily to do it after each rep anymore to target. The pace ranges sub threshold being broad enough that the paces they target aren't going to crush them and their lactate is almost always under their threshold. The only difference being the newer sessions KI is doing where he is purposely going over, but this a new development. In general when we talk about KI, most and almost all his training in a good year or so was all pace targeted, sub t.
If I can suggest, I would say someone such as yourself should read this thread. You clearly have messed up training goodness knows how many times and actually I think this could be a good plan for you to follow. Very uncomplicated and maybe finally you won't break and get injured. With all due respect, these guys have been doing this over a year+ non stop and are not injured and running every day. I know who I would rather listen to after your debacles, however I do think you are mis understood on this forum . I think think you are a bad guy and was said to see the state he who shall not be named, got you into.
Does this make sense? Why does the exact same interval workout at the same pace (20x400@5k) when done on tired legs produce less lactate than when done on fresh legs??
Of course you would expect to feel like you are pushing harder to hit 5k pace on tired legs. But if you are still hitting the same pace, why is less lactate being produced when the legs are tired?
Were you measuring lactate correctly? Do you have an explanation? This seems to be the opposite of what intuitively makes sense. How much of a difference are you talking about?
Assuming that thrashed legs imply fatigued and in a low glycogen state… There’s been multiple research studies done (cue lexel with link to paper haha) that compare metabolic response in a normal glycogen state to a low glycogen state. During exercise, the normal glycogen state lead to a release of lactate from the muscle. In contrast, the low glycogen state resulted in a small uptake of lactate. The conclusion is basically that the rate of glycolysis is higher in a normal glycogen state compared to a low glycogen state.
Additional factors influencing lactate measurement: - Weight training within 24 hours before the test - An intensive training session within 24 hours before the test - Testing within 3 days after an exceptional training period, such as an intensive and/or voluminous - training camp or a major competition - Testing in the morning versus testing in the afternoon - Too intensive or too voluminous warming up
-Hydration and Glycogen storage was already mentioned
hehe )) this it`s of course me,the great Swedish coach J.S . I come to this thread to learn möre about lactation treshold . My best coached kenyan runners all do one lactating session on the track every week - 👋🧙♂️🇸🇪
hehe )) this it`s of course me,the great Swedish coach J.S . I come to this thread to learn möre about lactation treshold . My best coached kenyan runners all do one lactating session on the track every week - 👋🧙♂️🇸🇪
Why coming here try to imitate the magic wizard and destroying this very good thread?JS is a very experienced pro coach, expert on low mileage training.He gives a very good balance to the thread.
hehe )) this it`s of course me,the great Swedish coach J.S . I come to this thread to learn möre about lactation treshold . My best coached kenyan runners all do one lactating session on the track every week - 👋🧙♂️🇸🇪
Why coming here try to imitate the magic wizard and destroying this very good thread?JS is a very experienced pro coach, expert on low mileage training.He gives a very good balance to the thread.
Me again!! )) hehe!Saturday is lactating day for my very best coached kenyans.50x1000m with recovery to 120 bpm - 👋🧙♂️🇸🇪
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Reason provided:
🧙♂️
hehe )) this it`s of course me,the great Swedish coach J.S . I come to this thread to learn möre about lactation treshold . My best coached kenyan runners all do one lactating session on the track every week - 👋🧙♂️🇸🇪
Why coming here try to imitate the magic wizard and destroying this very good thread?JS is a very experienced pro coach, expert on low mileage training.He gives a very good balance to the thread.
