In her case a compliment.😡
In her case a compliment.😡
I am only 45, so I never post on this thread, but was hoping to get a sense of perspective from some experienced folks who have a bit more experience than I do.
Background: Walked on to my D3 college team without any prior running experience and had good success through college and a year after college. Went on to grad school and got injured a bit and never really stuck with training for any extended period of time. I would train for a month or 6 months, then not train for 5 months or a year. I would go back and forth like that until at some point I had put on over 40 pounds compared to my college weight and wasn't really running at all. Got back to running a bit more consistently in my late 30s, but mostly to lose weight. At about 40, I really started getting after my training and decided to try to hit some 5k time goals and to try my first marathon. I have had a pretty good run as a masters runner the past 5 years.
I am now 4 months away from my 46th birthday. I ran Boston this past April and didn't take as much time off after as I had in my prior two marathons because I just felt less beat up. I live in Florida and it has been a really hot and humid summer.
Over the course of my most recent training cycle I have found it harder and harder to get in my customary 2 workouts per week plus a long run, and I have found it hard to get my long run up above 12 miles. I am still hitting pretty decent paces in workouts, but those paces feel more like 3k-4k race pace than the 5k race pace that I really intend to run. I have raced a couple of times in the last month or so, each time struggling to hold a pace that I thought I should be able to hold, and each time missing passing under a time threshold that I was shooting for by just under 10 seconds. I think that I would have been under the threshold time if I had been getting in 2 workouts per week, or had cooler weather, but who knows?
Part of me thinks it is a combination of a few factors: relative lack of recovery after Boston; heat and humidity (and the disproportionate effect that may have on me as a 45 year old); a lack of motivation to really dig in when I don't have a race in the immediate future (next major goal race is Houston Half in January); ending up in no man's land in races, etc.
Of course, I have also seen posters here who say that they were able to see a sharp decline at some point in their running lives, often around my age.
Have any of you experienced that sharp drop off, and does what I am experiencing sound like that, or do you think it might be explained by the other factors?
Because I have had so much downtime in my career and have relatively low miles on the odometer, and because I was able to bounce back into pretty good shape as a masters runner relative to my younger years (on an age graded scale), I do think it is more likely the other factors, but I can't say that with certainty.
If I think it is mostly due to the other factors, I will just wait out the last bit of heat and humidity and go back to my usual training approach. But if this is really age catching up with me, I am thinking it may be time to move to a 10 day "week" and start accommodating my need for more recovery time.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
In her case a compliment.😡
She said she doesn't recall meeting Jeff at any competitions, but immediately recognized Jeff's name from some of his distance results. He still is swimming some impressive 1500/1650 times for any age.
old guy II,
He immediately knew who she was, but admitted that since they were not in the same age group "just knew of her." That is when he made the "fast" comment. Like I said Jeff lives in or at the pool. I did two days of swimming this week 2,000 yards each time, but I cheat with fins.
Igy
Smoove,
The younger folks will provide another perspective. I could handle running every day up through about age 58. That said, my initial thought is the heat/humidity and marathon has been a bit of a drag. I coached at the college level for 19 years. Typically when I had athletes that felt like they dug themselves in a bit of a hole, I went back to basics. Drop the anaerobic, lighten up the tempo runs, generally emphasize low intensity and a gradual rebuild of the base.
That is my thoughts.
Igy
Thanks. I am handling the threshold/tempo work pretty well, but the vo2max work is killing me.
One other thing that I was considering since my next major race will be a half is to shift the bulk of my work to tempo/threshold pace (since that will benefit me for that race the most anyway, since I have had a decent amount of vo2max work over the last couple of months), and since I have actually raced my best masters 5k off of a marathon plan that had a big vo2max block followed by a big tempo block. The other thing is that when I go to a 2 tempo a week workout, I usually mix the second tempo effort into my long run, so it would give me 2 hard/long days to recover from rather than 3.
Even if I take that approach, I will still have to deal with the issue when I return to 5k-15k training after Houston though.
Smoove,
I didn't notice a "sharp decline" at age 47, but that happened to be the age when I first recognized a noticeable decline in my rate of recovery. My times did not fall off ( I mainly race 1500 to 10K) but the length of time it took to recover from a race or high intensity workout became clearly longer. A process that continues with each passing year. At 47 I ran 17:46 for a road 5K, at 49 I ran my last sub-18 5K (17:57), at 55 I ran 18:08, at 60 I ran 18:28, at 65 I ran 19:29 (trying to train through overuse injuries). Currently, at almost 68, I am injury-free again and trying to work back to under 20:00 for 5k. I believe that if I stay injury-free I can get back to the 19:00 range.
My experience has been that you can sustain a surprisingly good level of racing, but have to recognize the slow but inexorable increase in the amount of time required to recover from quality efforts.
Smoove,
I would think if you are struggling on the VO2max, it makes sense physiologically, and you should leave it a lone for now. Also, if you are less enthusiastic, that is just another symptom of stress.
Igy
Smoove,
I did some running in my 20s including two marathons around 3:45-ish, but never got serious until I was past 30. I then cleaned up my diet, dropped about 30 pounds, upped my mileage and started training seriously. At age 33 I set what would be my lifetime PRs at every distance from 5K to the marathon, qualifying for the OT marathon. I then got injured and spent most of the next 8-10 years running only intermittently and never being able to get fully healthy.
I finally got back to regular running in my early 40s, but much slower than before--perhaps my injury resolved only because I was finally too slow to hurt myself! Since then it's been a steady progression of plateaus that last a few years, broken up by short steep declines usually caused by an injury. I'll run pretty consistently for several years, then get injured, have several months off, try to get fit again and end up 10-15 seconds/mile slower than before.
Between November 2016 and May 2017, at age 58, I was able to run every day and get in 70-75 miles per week, but almost none of it at a hard effort. I'm now clawing my way back from an injury and running only about every other day, but I still expect to be able to run every day once I recover. For me so far, aging has just meant that I'm a lot slower than I used to be, but I can still do as much as I used do. I'm sure that will change at some point but I don't know when.
Smoove- I think a big trap for all runners, but masters in particular, is digging a hole on easy/recovery runs. Eliud Kipchoge posted up his last month's training and there are lots of miles in the 6:30-7:00 range, even slower for warmups. This is in the area of 1.5 x marathon pace for him.
If I recall from other threads, you are just under 6:00 for marathon pace, putting your ideal recovery pace in the 8:00-9:00 range, especially when considering hotter conditions (maybe even slower than 9:00). How does this jibe with your current training? As a as-distance guy in my 40's (4:20) I found that if I did not jog my easy days, my VO2max sessions went South big time. It is the only way to sustain proper mileage while still getting full recovery.
I also encourage a longer "week" of training rotation: 10-14 days, avoiding the watch for all but key sessions or at least only noting pace after the run, not during.
Recovery must be made into your new god. Doing so has at least allowed me to be running healthy at 60.
My easy pace is usually run at the same perceived effort that it has always been run at for the most part. That is faster than the pace that you are suggesting, but in line with the Daniels' prescribed pace and, most importantly, conversational pace for me. Sometimes that means 6:50 pace (especially later miles in a run after my body loosens up), sometimes that means 7:45 pace for the first mile and 7:15 when my body loosens up. I hear what you are saying, but I honestly don't think my easy day pace is an issue (except on those rare occasions when I kind of get rolling with a training buddy who is faster than me)or when I want to get the run over with and pick it up a little just to be done - but those days are rare.
Smoove -- As you know, I have been following your training on the "week ending" threads, and I believe the heat and humidity are the main culprits. I suppose the older we get, the more it may affect us.
That said, over the years, I also have run my best 5Ks off marathon training. But maybe that's more attributable to increased overall mileage than threshold versus VO2 max workouts. Despite starting in the sport in 1972, and racing during the heyday of high mileage, for various reasons I've always been a low-mileage guy. Reading through that current "70s training" thread, I feel like a long-time slacker!
RE: 10-day cycle. Earlier this year, I modified an old Pfitzinger half-marathon plan to a nine-day schedule. A long run, a medium-long run, a VO2max workout and an LT workout in each cycle. Reached my half marathon goal and set an age-graded 5K PR (while still a little sore five days after a 20-mile run). All went well for four months, but I've been training through injuries since the end of April.
Anyway, with cooler weather, I expect you'll be back to "normal." Best wishes with your running and coaching.
-Allen
Brittle Master 1958 wrote:
Allen1959, if you are smart, you will scrap this marathon, which sounds like a pretty terrible idea given your various ailments, start healing and getting the physical therapy NOW ...
Brittle, I would give that same advice. But I'm not smart enough to take it! However, I am looking forward to a nice break after the marathon.
Smoove wrote:
I have also seen posters here who say that they were able to see a sharp decline at some point in their running lives, often around my age.
Have any of you experienced that sharp drop off, and does what I am experiencing sound like that, or do you think it might be explained by the other factors?
Smoove, you are a much more accomplished runner than I ever was, but I can answer your question.
I did not see much dropoff in my running all the way to age 40. In fact I remember being 40 and saying, "What's the big deal?" I was in the National Guard (still am), and at age 40 I was still beating almost ALL the young kids in my infantry unit on the 2-mile run every year as part of our fitness test.
But somewhere between 40 and 45, the roof caved in. Running became much harder. I was baffled as to what was happening.
The good news is, at age 47, I decided to dig in and get back to hard training, and I was able to get everything back. It was just much harder, in the sense that I had to run a lot more miles and go to the gym and stretch and strengthen, just to get back to (more or less) where I was without much effort from age 20-40 (say).
The bad news is that after a couple of years, the much harder training broke down my body.
At age 50 I had a mini-renaissance in which I was again able to break 20:00 for 5K, but this time it required a lot of hard track work plus significant weight loss, back to my college weight. I was only able to pull it all together for a few months because of a brief period of unemployment. Then I got a job, and got injured again.
Now I am 59, and hard training is simply impossible for me. Too many things hurt, and I am simply not able to run many miles, or run any miles very fast. This in spite of solid efforts to stretch (a lot) and strengthen (within the limits of my various nagging injuries).
So now I realize it's very unlikely I'll ever again be more than a mid-pack runner, even within my own age group. But I am determined to at least be that, if I can hang in there. So that's my story.
Everyone is different. I am more fragile than most people, so you may have better luck sustaining your running at a higher level for longer.
Smoove- If Eliud was training at your "easy" pace, he would be running 5:25 miles instead of 6:30-7:00. And he is 13 years younger than you, and not training in a steam bath, with a full-time job, etc..
Many of the top marathoners do the same in terms of really easy days, especially the Japanese. Just sayin'.
As you get older, your longevity will be a test of your pride more than your willingness to work hard. Best of luck.
Thanks for the thoughts Up Runner. I don't mean to ask for advice just to ignore it, and there may be something to the idea of slowing down some on easy days (even if I don't agree with your specific pace suggestions or with the premise that we should be extrapolating anything about a second tier middle aged runner from the training of perhaps the best marathoner of all time).
On the other side of the "slow down to stay fast" argument, perhaps you have heard of a gent by the name of Ed Whitlock ;) Just bookmark this advice somewhere in your mind for future reference if you choose not to try it now.
Smoove wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts Up Runner. I don't mean to ask for advice just to ignore it, and there may be something to the idea of slowing down some on easy days (even if I don't agree with your specific pace suggestions or with the premise that we should be extrapolating anything about a second tier middle aged runner from the training of perhaps the best marathoner of all time).
Hello Smoove, another DIII walk on here. Other than several seasons/years injured I've pretty much kept on running and racing, now for 40 years (but for about 24 of those years I primarily XC skied 3-6 months a year and I think that's helped with longevity). I noticed a pretty steep drop from age 35 to 39, bounced back pretty well for about 3 years and then the bottom fell out from 43 to 46. And when I came back I'd lost a bit, but no more than you'd expect from age. But for the past 12-13 years I've managed to hold pretty steady. My mile, 3K, and 5K times have dropped off a bit since then, but 10K and up I'm running just about the same as my late 40s and early 50s. That means my age grade percents/times have kept climbing and climbing.
A couple things, after about 40 or 41, at the advice from a former coach and very good masters runner (4:25 mile to 2:30 marathon in his early 40s), I backed off on frequent workouts at V02 max effort, rather focusing more on tempos, long runs, and fartlek where you get enough work to stimulate the faster paced systems but not so much as to impact the racing. So I go into my races maybe even somewhat undertrained, but ready to race.
Over the summer I quantified my miles and %s at different levels and the breakdown was 87% easy/endurance, 6% tempo, a little under 3% V02, and a little under 2% speed (mile pace and under), and 2% races (just 2 10Ks and a half marathon). I do two very easy runs a week, usually Monday and Friday, where I go 5-7 miles at 8:30 pace or so. The rest of the easy running is 7:40-8 (about where Daniels suggests for my race times), mileage average was 62 with weekly long run of 12-16.
Excited for an aerobic-tank workout yesterday on MJ Track & Hollister Trail...
* 2mile tempo on track at 12:13 (5min jog break)
* 6x 800 on trail at 2:54-3:00-2:57-2:51-2:51-2:54 (2min jog rest)
Wiped me out real good.
Then exercised it on our Varsity Girls & Boys of Grant HS.
They too nailed it's purpose and should benefit as we aim for State Meet.
Hope all y'all had a good training week as well.
KP
I just got back from taking my new track shoes out for a spin. Wow, they are fun! Today's workout was 2 mile warm up jog, sprint drills, 1 mile of striding the straights and walking the curves, then 3x40 in the new shoes. I actually ran like a sprinter in the spikes and it made me feel so hopeful and happy. Then a 2 mile jog back home.
This week was Monday speed endurance 6x200 averaging about 42 seconds with a minute and a half rest in between. Tuesday was weights. Wednesday was 5 mile easy jog along with a yoga class. Thursday was weights. Friday I rested and then tomorrow I will do another 5 mile easy jog. This seems to be working for me. I'm feeling so much stronger than 8 weeks ago.