Frank Shorter vs. Jim Ryun. Who ya got?

Ryun beat Keino head to head in a two mile. If Frank could not run away from Jim --- he would have gotten out-kicked. I say Ryun 8:26, Shorter 8:27.

0ii-op wrote:

Ryun beat Keino head to head in a two mile. If Frank could not run away from Jim --- he would have gotten out-kicked. I say Ryun 8:26, Shorter 8:27.

What is the point in putting them up against each other in their weakest event? You might as well ask them to arm wrestle.

Armstronglivs wrote:

0ii-op wrote:

Ryun beat Keino head to head in a two mile. If Frank could not run away from Jim --- he would have gotten out-kicked. I say Ryun 8:26, Shorter 8:27.

What is the point in putting them up against each other in their weakest event? You might as well ask them to arm wrestle.

You are not very bright. The point is to try to settle it on the field of battle if it were possible instead of letting you keyboard masturbators spill your seed over it.

rocky mtns wrote:

Train at Altitude wrote:

If you know the Olympics are at altitude train at altitude.

I don't know for how long, but I do know Ryan did train at altitude (Alamosa, CO) prior to Mexico City. In Ryan's defense, Keino was born and raised at altitude. Even a prolonged training stint isn't the same thing. Not making excuses either. I also heard a story that Jack Daniels (or another physiologist) had convinced Ryan that no one could run faster than 3:37 at altitude and that perhaps Ryan let Keino go thinking he wouldn't be able maintain that pace. Could be nothing to that story as well.

Ryun had discussed it in depth with Daniels, and concluded that 3:39 would win the race. (I.e., that neither Keino nor anyone else was capable of running any faster than that at 6800 feet.)

So Ryun, presumably, planned to try and run 3:39 or faster.

As it was, he managed a little better than that, with 3:37.9. Pretty Goddamn good, all things considered. And their assessment seemed pretty damn good, too. Tummler ran 3:39 exactly, and Ryun blew by him with 250 to go.

Only problem was that Keino broke 3:35, a good 4 seconds faster than Ryun, or Daniels, or anyone else thought he was capable of.

Ryun performed brilliantly --especially considering his battle with mono, and a quad pull (I think?) that had broken up training a bit.

He had absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, and the fans and pundits who called him a choker were (and still are) freaking idiots.

You could probably make a (debatable) case that he might've made a slight tactical mistake to lag a little on Lap 2 (which I think was around 60.5, while Keino stretched away with a 58.8), and to get caught behind some traffic, that forced him to pass several people wide on the turn.

If he could've been a second faster on Lap 2, and a tad more efficient, he might've been close enough to Keino at 1200 to think he could challenge him down the stretch, but it's doubtful.

The margin was too big. Keino's performance was a freak. His best race by a long shot.

If Ryun hadn't gotten mono, hadn't pulled a muscle, and was in the same shape he'd been in the year before, he probably could've made it pretty close, but Keino's run that day was an all-time historic great, and it might've been too much for Jim even at his absolute best.

Ryun ran a heroic race. It just wasn't enough on that day.

One amazing addition to the Ryun legend that I had never known, and just learned today, while reading up a little (and I'm amazed that no one ever mentions it when discussing this race):

That Compton Relays race, where he's invited to compete with the best in the country as a 17-year-old HS junior (first time any high-schooler breaks 4), he gets badly tripped and bumped in the middle of the second lap, stumbles over the rail and into the infield, and hesitates for a long moment as people go by, and he searches for room to hop back in,... and he STILL collects himself, gets back in the race, and manages a 3:59 flat.

He wasn't just sub-4 at that point; he was *WAY* sub-4 in an ideal race. (Let alone on a modern track, with modern shoes, etc.)

... As a just-turned-17-year-old, not even done with his junior year of high school.

...In 19-freaking-64.

It boggles the mind.

just 17 wrote:

Lenny Leonard wrote:

He was 17...

I was just about to post that. Webb was 18 when he broke Ryun's HS record, AND Webb finished as an also ran. Ryun won over the MOST RECENT 1500 meter Olympic champion who had set the 1500 meter WR just ONE YEAR before losing to Ryun.

That is my issue with this contest. people being subjective favoring nostalgia over objectively superior performances. It is not just this instance

but I don't understand how Jim ryun has won so far over lagat,rupp,shorter. He didn't have to compete with the africans, mostly ran only one event(I can't discredit his 800 time though), and wasn't a world champion. I love hearing how runners set world records but no one seems to account for the fact that the world record obviously was much weaker than it is now(the east africans had not touched it yet). That seems to always be a argument in the older runners favor when someone compares them to modern runners.

Ryun is a great runner but objectively he is clearly not the best male to me.

Pretty sure Keino was East African.

Utter stupidity.

You think comparing simple times in completely different shoes, tracks, competition, training knowledge is objective?

Let's be generous and assume Alan Webb wasn't on EPO or HGH - didn't he have at least 4 or 5 full throttle EPO guys, including the greatest of them all, to drag him to his HS mile record?

Ryun competed with Keino, who was probably more doped than Kiprop.

He wasn't a world champion because they didn't start until 83.

I stopped reading your comment after that.

It was a mile in Vancouver, not Europe. Snell finished 10th in 4:15. High Schoolers Roscoe Devine and Terry Dooley finished ahead of Snell.

The Vancouver mile was sometime in June, 1965--before the San Diego mile. Snell had some type of stomach problems.

I voted for Ryun. He was a running god . . . such a force of nature. Like watching Secretariat.

Was there when he ran 3:53 in Los Angeles. I got him to autograph Cordner Nelson's "The Jim Ryun Story." Saw Coach Timmons in the stands and quckly flipped through the book to find a good picture of him to autograph. Took me three times to get Jim's autograph. First time he was warming up on the track . . . "Later" he said. Second time I jumped the rail when he was on his victory lap. Again, "Later." Finally, I saw him in the stand holding a large trophy. "Now can I have your autograph?" Got it. Told this story to Jim Grelle (great guy!) at the 2008 Oly Trials in Eugene. He smiled and said he would have told me the same thing. At the same time I got Ryun's and Timmon's autographs in 1967, I got Ron Clarke to autograph his book, "The Unforgiving Minute." ("Best wishes, Ron Clarke). Very friendly guy.

Postscript: That Fall I wrote a letter to Track and Field News, saying how much I enjoyed "The Jim Ryun Story." A couple months later they blew it up in the magazine and used it as an advertisement for the book. For a day, I was a celebrity in HS. My English teacher quipped, "I hear you're published."

jamesbuffet wrote:

Neither ran modern times, so I do not care much about by how much they beat other records in their eras.

Each cheated out of an Olympic Gold by some b.s. Shorter still won one.

Shorter also won other major races.

Ryun probably showed more talent and wowed everyone in HS. He also ended his career not too long after.

B.S.

Ryun made Olympic teams in 64, as a HS Jr, set an American record in the mile as a senior, won several NCAA championships and made the Olympic teams in 68 and 72.

9 years at or near the top.

He ended his amateur career 9 years after he became well known, and 7 years after he graduated from HS..

That is "soon after"?

Because wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

What is the point in putting them up against each other in their weakest event? You might as well ask them to arm wrestle.

You are not very bright. The point is to try to settle it on the field of battle if it were possible instead of letting you keyboard masturbators spill your seed over it.

Talking of bright - how do you imagine they are going to "settle it on the field of battle" in 2020? Remember to clean your keyboard on the way out.

Ryun's career spanned 9 years at or near the top.

Please define "longevity".

Runningroger wrote:

Back in 1968 altitude training was considered cheating if you did not live at altitude giving the African runners a huge advantage.

I don't think that people considered it cheating. People just didn't have a clue about it.

Armstronglivs wrote:

In 5 years he never lost a championship or race he needed to win - like the challenges in '63 from Jim Beatty, the then world indoor mile record holder. .

When Beatty was injured.

Interesting stuff. I couldn't recall where Snell ran the race where he finished last. I do remember reading though that he had been hit by gastro enteritis the night before, which if you've ever experienced it will really knock you around.

Snell was booed by the spectators as he ran up the home straight. He was quite upset and afterwards he went to the microphone and apologised to the crowd, saying that he was trying his very best but that he had been ill and he felt obliged to compete as they had turned up to see him run. The crowd then gave him a standing ovation which made him even more emotional than his poor performance. A great champion in every sense.

Ryun was undoubtedly a helluva runner - and from a remarkably early age. A prodigy. I recall being mesmerised by his feats in '66/67. I don't think I have seen a more talented middle distance runner. He seemed unbeatable. But he was never again at that level in his career. '68 was the turning point. In some ways, I see him as a magnificently unfulfilled talent.

JohnMD1022 wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

In 5 years he never lost a championship or race he needed to win - like the challenges in '63 from Jim Beatty, the then world indoor mile record holder. .

When Beatty was injured.

Bullsh*t. Beatty was at his peak. That was why the Modesto and Compton races were set up in the summer '63 - a time of year that was Snell's off-season. He felt had had to front up because he said Beatty threatened to take away all his feats he had accomplished since Rome '60. He saw off the pretender - which is yet another reason he is remembered as a legend and Beatty is a footnote to track history and remembered only by a handful of LA track nuts.

quote]Armstronglivs wrote:

In 5 years he never lost a championship or race he needed to win - like the challenges in '63 from Jim Beatty, the then world indoor mile record holder. .[/quote]

When Beatty was injured.[/quote]

Bullsh*t. In '63 Beatty was at his peak. That was why the Modesto and Compton races were set up in the summer '63 - a time of year that was Snell's off-season. He felt had had to front-up because he said Beatty, the new world indoor mile record-holder, threatened to take away all that he had built up since Rome '60. In two convincing victories he saw off the pretender - which is yet another reason why he is remembered as a legend and Beatty is a footnote to track history.

Sorry. Repeat post. Bl*ody phone.

Ok so you think the BEST runners existed over 50 years ago and no one superior came since then.

I was trying to move away from times since no one knows on what someone like Ryun would have run in rubber/mondo in shoes like the zoom victories.

I wasn't comparing Webb and Ryun's run by the way. We will never know who is doping so at least just compare the performances for what they were lol. But Webb did clearly have more range.

But what I was trying to compare was dominance for what it truly was. Ryun didn't have the equivalent of lagat/ El G, Kiprop to compete against and obviously in those years the record was much softer than it is now. I think instead of giving more credit to older guys for breaking weaker records we should give more credit to modern runners for coming close to the current record. No highschool boy could even fathom running a world record in 2020. People like Keljecha and Jakob are insane talents and they still are not close. Lastly when I said World champion I also meant olympic champion. those are the same to me. I know that is an opinion but still. Exact same people competing for both titles on a yearly basis.