CJ Albertson workout: 27 miles "cruising" at 5:09 pace

Hardloper wrote:

seasoned ranker wrote:

Didn't Estrada or Vail (or both) have some very impressive long runs before the last OTs that didn't pan out so well for them? Something like 20 miles at 4:5x pace?

Big difference between 20 and 27 miles. It's possible to be able to hammer a fast 20-miler and still be bad at the marathon once glycogen utilization and cramping is a factor (though I think "the shoes" have helped in this regard).

There's actually not a big difference between being able to run 20 miles at 4:5x pace and being able to run a good marathon. Maybe for 3 hour marathoners like you it is hard to convert 20 miles at faster than race pace to an actual marathon result, but it is not (or should not) be a problem for 2:10 guys.

seasoned ranker wrote:

Hardloper wrote:

Big difference between 20 and 27 miles. It's possible to be able to hammer a fast 20-miler and still be bad at the marathon once glycogen utilization and cramping is a factor (though I think "the shoes" have helped in this regard).

There's actually not a big difference between being able to run 20 miles at 4:5x pace and being able to run a good marathon. Maybe for 3 hour marathoners like you it is hard to convert 20 miles at faster than race pace to an actual marathon result, but it is not (or should not) be a problem for 2:10 guys.

"Should" is the operative word. Estrada ran his infamous 20 miler at 4:52 pace and then proceeded to run 2:15. Similarly Stinson ran an impressive 35k and then ran CIM in 2:18. A 27 miler on the other hand would indicate an athlete can handle the distance, the only question is how much faster.

Hardloper wrote:

seasoned ranker wrote:

There's actually not a big difference between being able to run 20 miles at 4:5x pace and being able to run a good marathon. Maybe for 3 hour marathoners like you it is hard to convert 20 miles at faster than race pace to an actual marathon result, but it is not (or should not) be a problem for 2:10 guys.

"Should" is the operative word. Estrada ran his infamous 20 miler at 4:52 pace and then proceeded to run 2:15. Similarly Stinson ran an impressive 35k and then ran CIM in 2:18. A 27 miler on the other hand would indicate an athlete can handle the distance, the only question is how much faster.

What that stuff indicates is that everyones day is different. I have zero doubt that anyone who can run 20 miles 4:52 could have run 26 miles at 5:00 mile pace on that day, for that course, and those weather conditions. I have a lot less doubt that a person who runs 5:09 for 27 miles could have run 26 miles at 5.00 pace.

The history of people running crazy workouts and then bombing on race day is long. I wouldn't be shocked to see a 2:15 or slower. Lets look at some of his history. He ran a 30 mile training run at 5:15 pace before CIM. He then ran 5:08 pace for a 7s improvement on a downhill course that most people think is worth 60-120s over a legit course. The . ability to run 26+ milers hard and recovery quickly is impressive. Not convinced that it translates into being a sub 2:12 runner though.

Most people think it's about equal to most flat fast courses, actually. Assuming no stupid tailwind.

C.J. might be one of these guys like Doug Kurtis who can run a sub-2:20 every weekend but never breaks 2:13

Hardloper wrote:

seasoned ranker wrote:

There's actually not a big difference between being able to run 20 miles at 4:5x pace and being able to run a good marathon. Maybe for 3 hour marathoners like you it is hard to convert 20 miles at faster than race pace to an actual marathon result, but it is not (or should not) be a problem for 2:10 guys.

"Should" is the operative word. Estrada ran his infamous 20 miler at 4:52 pace and then proceeded to run 2:15. Similarly Stinson ran an impressive 35k and then ran CIM in 2:18. A 27 miler on the other hand would indicate an athlete can handle the distance, the only question is how much faster.

The point is that Estrada WAS in 2:10 shape and left it in training, and it is yet to be determined if CJ has done the same.

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

The history of people running crazy workouts and then bombing on race day is long. I wouldn't be shocked to see a 2:15 or slower. Lets look at some of his history. He ran a 30 mile training run at 5:15 pace before CIM. He then ran 5:08 pace for a 7s improvement on a downhill course that most people think is worth 60-120s over a legit course. The . ability to run 26+ milers hard and recovery quickly is impressive. Not convinced that it translates into being a sub 2:12 runner though.

CIM is not 2min faster than a perfect course...I feel like this gets hammered every December. might be 2min faster than an "average" course though.

how can you not be convinced that running a 2:14 in practice, solo, is not worth better than 2:12 with competition on a faster course?

there are definitely a ton of people capable of doing hard 20 milers in training who can not put it together for 26 miles on race day. even if you don't "screw up", there are limits to people's endurance and for some people it's in between 20 and 26 miles. Even with Nike's sub2 shenanigans, Tadese could only manage like 2:06 in vaporflies (2:10 pre-VF) while holding the WR at the half marathon.

Uh no. Half race to full race is a much, much bigger difference than 20 mile tempo to full race.

How fast do you think a person who runs 30 miles at 5:15 in training with no taper will run when they rest up, run a fast downhill course, and have some competition? Turns out the answer is like 7s. Now we are talking about a shorter run at a faster pace. Him struggling to run even 5s/mile faster seems like pretty reasonable outcome.

Again it is an impressive as hell ability to crank out these runs. There have been people in the past that have done similar things (run like 4 marathons in 2 months) and everyone always goes what would have happened if they would have been rested. Most of the time the imagined super peak performance never shows . up.

Rupp, Ward, Albertson - in this order. Fauble and Korir crack, Walmsley in top 10, McMillan&McDonald and Mock too.

22 miles at 5:11 pace. Looks like he’s starting to taper! Expect great thing.

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

This is one of the dumbest workouts I've ever seen

Like Really Bro wrote:

It does seem like a really dumb workout. Too hard.

cb wrote:

Looks like this guy already ran his race.

HardHard wrote:

too long and too hard, that's why he will feel flat when race day comes.

FFF wrote:

And this is easily the dumbest workout I've ever heard of. Albertson's 2:12 in Atlanta just vaporized. DNF trials day.

Bump

7th in 2:11:49 wrote:

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

This is one of the dumbest workouts I've ever seen

Like Really Bro wrote:

It does seem like a really dumb workout. Too hard.

cb wrote:

Looks like this guy already ran his race.

HardHard wrote:

too long and too hard, that's why he will feel flat when race day comes.

FFF wrote:

And this is easily the dumbest workout I've ever heard of. Albertson's 2:12 in Atlanta just vaporized. DNF trials day.

Bump

What shoes was he wearing?

FormerAverageRunner wrote:

7th in 2:11:49 wrote:

Bump

What shoes was he wearing?

Brooks, who he's sponsored by.

Excellent run.