subject lines sux wrote:
is everybody prepared? just what are we to do?
the question should be...
"Is RUPP prepared to win Boston?"
+1
I see no need for me to do anything regarding Rupp's participation in the event.
subject lines sux wrote:
is everybody prepared? just what are we to do?
the question should be...
"Is RUPP prepared to win Boston?"
+1
I see no need for me to do anything regarding Rupp's participation in the event.
zzzz wrote:Umm. Probably millions of people in the US have Androgel prescriptions. What's to stop any other runner from "borrowing" some from any other Androgel user? Nothing really.
The law, namely. It is illegal to do so.
zzzz wrote:Salazar's test was sketchy for sure. But that's 2009, and for that particular lab. Who's to say that the detection limits are different or can be different for different labs or equipment? As a scientist, I've sent thousands of environmental samples to labs. I can request different detection limits, often for needing to pay a lot more for lower detection limits. It would probably be foolish to rely on that experiment from that long ago and assume that you'd be safe from detection all the time.
Maybe you don't understand that he had guys in-house testing specifically how much topical T they could apply to ensure it stayed below required limits for the tests. He wasn't worried about it showing up or not. It's okay to have T in the body naturally. He was just concerned with exactly how much could be added topically to a person without triggering a red flag.
zzzz wrote:Salazar giving massages is fine. Anyone could massage themselves with Androgel that they take from any of the other millions of users in the US, so why would we care about the massages?
It's illegal for Salazar to use his own prescribed medicine on a different person. It's illegal for Rupp to supplement testosterone directly.
zzzz wrote:The testers test Rupp a whole lot. If they test him soon after he rubs or gets Androgel rubbed in him, he'll test positive... if that's what he does.
False. The experimentation we have been talking about taught Salazar precisely how much T he could rub into Rupp without exceeding the amount that triggers a red flag. He could illegally administer the T, but ensure the tested level never triggered an alarm.
You miss my point. I'm saying that just because Salazar has a legitimate prescription for Androgel, that shouldn't by itself place more suspicion on Rupp. A lot of other athletes have dads or grandfathers, uncles, professors, coaches, or other friends and acquaintances who have Androgel prescriptions too because it's a fairly common drug. Those athletes aren't under suspicion because of their relationships with those people because we don't know about them.
I'm not familiar enough with the lab tests for testosterone enough to know for sure if I had a good point or not about the Salazar lab experiments from 2009 perhaps not giving enough information to beat tests from today or future tests. I'm guessing that there could be moving goal posts here for dopers at some point. There is no amount of exogenous testosterone that is allowed. So the 2009 tests aren't to stay below a limit for exogenous testosterone - any amount detected is . I know they do a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio (T:E) test first to see if there is reason for suspicious. Then they do a carbon isotope ratio test to determine if the testosterone is exogenous. Perhaps the experiments were to find out what amount tips the T:E ratio. Or maybe they were to find what amount is detectable by the carbon isotope ratio test.
But if they suspect someone of using Androgel, I don't see why they wouldn't go to the carbon isotope ratio test directly even with the T:E within limits. I don't have the interest to dig into that much further, but we non-lab experts don't know that how sensitive that test can be, and how much more sensitive it can be now compared to what it was in 2009. Maybe an expert can speak to that.
It's been repeated so much here that Salazar rubs Androgel on Rupp the some people seem to think that's been established fact. But it's just speculation. Like I said before, it's OK for Salazar to give Rupp massages, even if they have other people to give massages. It's not OK for Salazar to apply Androgel to Rupp, but we don't know that he does. Rupp still has plausible deniability.
The testosterone testing experiment is definitely sketchy, but the story that Salazar was paranoid about sabatoge is almost believable considering his personality and the event that was referenced (don't remember the details).
Shoebacca wrote:
zzzz wrote:Umm. Probably millions of people in the US have Androgel prescriptions. What's to stop any other runner from "borrowing" some from any other Androgel user? Nothing really.
The law, namely. It is illegal to do so.
zzzz wrote:Salazar's test was sketchy for sure. But that's 2009, and for that particular lab. Who's to say that the detection limits are different or can be different for different labs or equipment? As a scientist, I've sent thousands of environmental samples to labs. I can request different detection limits, often for needing to pay a lot more for lower detection limits. It would probably be foolish to rely on that experiment from that long ago and assume that you'd be safe from detection all the time.
Maybe you don't understand that he had guys in-house testing specifically how much topical T they could apply to ensure it stayed below required limits for the tests. He wasn't worried about it showing up or not. It's okay to have T in the body naturally. He was just concerned with exactly how much could be added topically to a person without triggering a red flag.
zzzz wrote:Salazar giving massages is fine. Anyone could massage themselves with Androgel that they take from any of the other millions of users in the US, so why would we care about the massages?
It's illegal for Salazar to use his own prescribed medicine on a different person. It's illegal for Rupp to supplement testosterone directly.
zzzz wrote:The testers test Rupp a whole lot. If they test him soon after he rubs or gets Androgel rubbed in him, he'll test positive... if that's what he does.
False. The experimentation we have been talking about taught Salazar precisely how much T he could rub into Rupp without exceeding the amount that triggers a red flag. He could illegally administer the T, but ensure the tested level never triggered an alarm.
He "could" rub into Rupp...
Could doesnt mean he did. Your argument as well as those of the anti NOP crowd is based on conjecture, speculation, and jealousy.
Will be a blast to laugh in your face yet again when rupp wins.
He probably will win. That doesn’t make your argument that everyone competing is clean any less stupid.
zzzz wrote:
You miss my point. I'm saying that just because Salazar has a legitimate prescription for Androgel, that shouldn't by itself place more suspicion on Rupp. A lot of other athletes have dads or grandfathers, uncles, professors, coaches, or other friends and acquaintances who have Androgel prescriptions too because it's a fairly common drug. Those athletes aren't under suspicion because of their relationships with those people because we don't know about them.
I'm not familiar enough with the lab tests for testosterone enough to know for sure if I had a good point or not about the Salazar lab experiments from 2009 perhaps not giving enough information to beat tests from today or future tests. I'm guessing that there could be moving goal posts here for dopers at some point. There is no amount of exogenous testosterone that is allowed. So the 2009 tests aren't to stay below a limit for exogenous testosterone - any amount detected is . I know they do a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio (T:E) test first to see if there is reason for suspicious. Then they do a carbon isotope ratio test to determine if the testosterone is exogenous. Perhaps the experiments were to find out what amount tips the T:E ratio. Or maybe they were to find what amount is detectable by the carbon isotope ratio test.
But if they suspect someone of using Androgel, I don't see why they wouldn't go to the carbon isotope ratio test directly even with the T:E within limits. I don't have the interest to dig into that much further, but we non-lab experts don't know that how sensitive that test can be, and how much more sensitive it can be now compared to what it was in 2009. Maybe an expert can speak to that.
It's been repeated so much here that Salazar rubs Androgel on Rupp the some people seem to think that's been established fact. But it's just speculation. Like I said before, it's OK for Salazar to give Rupp massages, even if they have other people to give massages. It's not OK for Salazar to apply Androgel to Rupp, but we don't know that he does. Rupp still has plausible deniability.
The testosterone testing experiment is definitely sketchy, but the story that Salazar was paranoid about sabatoge is almost believable considering his personality and the event that was referenced (don't remember the details).
For an example of what a previous documented T:E ratio in a doping test of way over 8.999 :1 in a female can look like:
http://img004.lazygirls.info/people/darya_klishina/darya_klishina_bikini_qVLXEgR.sized.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/736x/7c/c0/77/7cc077d7d18b5e2c24081c4eb5a27834.jpgDarya is OFF score is OFF THE CHARTS...again!!!
kmaclam wrote:
Why aren't we talking about the women's field??? Just the American entrants alone make it a more compelling story than Rupp's.
Because this thread is about Rupp?
If Rupp or Hasay win Boston, I'll never return. It will,change my perception of the Race. I also blame John Hancock for bringing them in. I liked that NYRR told them NO.
I've been around the sport long enough to know that passing a drug test is meaningless. So telling me how many drug tests someone passed shows ignorance.
Because.... wrote:
kmaclam wrote:
Why aren't we talking about the women's field??? Just the American entrants alone make it a more compelling story than Rupp's.
Because this thread is about Rupp?
who?
Run every Boston for over 30yrs wrote:
If Rupp or Hasay win Boston, I'll never return. It will,change my perception of the Race. I also blame John Hancock for bringing them in. I liked that NYRR told them NO.
I've been around the sport long enough to know that passing a drug test is meaningless. So telling me how many drug tests someone passed shows ignorance.
Well, that'll show'em!
You make me laugh.
1. There is no proof
2. Everyone else is doing it too.
You can hide behind number 1 or 2 if you want. But it is a humorous defense.
I’m sure John Stiner would have some interesting things to say on this thread ... I see him posting on other Rupp threads.
Thank you to Shoebacca for speaking truth here.
epicTCK wrote:
joho wrote:
Meb winning Boston was American enough for me. Rupp winning will only be a small footnote in running history.
yeah freaking hate all these people who are like "AMERICAN WINNING BOSTON!!!" and its like bruh meb just did that a handful of years ago
I think the majority of this board is white. Just like many women want to see a woman be president - many white fans would like to see a white person win Boston. It shows them that it is indeed possible as the last 31 winners have been nonwhite. It's not PC to talk about race, however, so they use the American born moniker.
anacondarunner wrote:
As someone who became a fan of running during Ryan Hall's heyday, I couldn't have imagined a much more exciting development for US distance running than an American-born athlete winning the Boston Marathon. Well, it certainly seems inevitable that Galen is going to win Boston this year, but for me the accomplishment will ring hollow and engender little more than a shrug (just as his Chicago victory did).
It's truly unfortunate; I vividly remember skipping class to watch Hall run Boston in 09, 10, and 11, and even though he didn't win, I found his performances to be compelling and inspiring. And I always thought it would be so, so cool if an American-born runner ever somehow managed to win Boston. But for it to be Rupp after all we've learned from the ProPublica and USADA reports ... man, what a bummer.
An intelligent person can't read all the facts in the USADA report and NOT come to the conclusion that Rupp and Salazar have almost certainly violated antidoping rules. More specifically, based on the facts, it's HIGHLY likely that Rupp and Salazar have abused synthetic testosterone for performance gains. (So spare me your cries of "Rupp and Salazar only operate in the gray area" because that's not remotely true.) Consequently, when Galen wins, it'll do nothing to show that CLEAN American-born athletes can compete with the top East Africans in the marathon. At least in my mind.
I hope this post doesn't get deleted. I can't be the only running fan who feels this way.
2:10FTW?