Get the inside scoop on Drew Hunter's training - LetsRun's feature on Tom "Tinman" Schwartz

adsfdsfsssd wrote:

tell the twooth! wrote:

Except that nobody does it. High schools don't. Colleges don't. Your running group doesn't. I don't go to my running group's weekly track workouts because they are killing themselves with 5K pace mile repeats.

Nobody runs 10k pace? Are you actually this stupid?

Nobody runs repeats at the track at 10k pace on a weekly basis, no. Now who's stupid, stupid. (There we both can call each other stupid)

tell the twooth! wrote:

adsfdsfsssd wrote:

Nobody runs 10k pace? Are you actually this stupid?

Nobody runs repeats at the track at 10k pace on a weekly basis, no. Now who's stupid, stupid. (There we both can call each other stupid)

Plenty of coaches and athletes make cruise intervals at 10k-tempo pace one of the cornerstones of their training plans. I'm one of them. For a more successful example, see Andy Powell at Oregon (one reason why Oregon will be perfect for Drew Hunter).

This pace has been around a long time. Two Ohio cross country state championships were won many years ago using this type of work - consistently. The guys always felt good and could race well at any time. That "bit faster" pace used to describe CV is what I call accelerated tempo pace or what I have heard called Max threshold by some. A pace somewhere between Threshold and approaching VO2. You can be creative and adjust longer/shorter duration and rest interval to get the effect you want. Been using that for years.

To all those commenting on Drew's "shuffling" form: while I haven't seen any definitive vid of his footthestrike, he has, for a runner, very short legs and a long torso, which may impact the illusion of a shuffle. Kind of like Michael Johnson, who was not a shuffled.

One year around 2001 or so at the USATF Middle and Long Distance Summit meeting, James Li spoke about Bernard Lagat's training and he said "Kip is not that talented, he just works hard". Might not be exact wording but that was his point.

localboy wrote:

come on, trying to say there are a dozen+ boys out there as talented as Hunter is such a farce a screams of vanity.

Two things:

1. You can argue with Tinman's philosophy, but you can't argue that he has done a great job with Drew Hunter. 7:59 is no accident.

2. Tinman certainly can get a training discussion going. He did it on here 15 yrs ago and now this thread has almost 100 posts

There have been a few posts that say something like repeats with short recovery, but according to two posts by Tinman in this forum, http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum9/HTML/001625.shtml. In the first post he cites a study that, "compared shorter and longer recoveries between 7 minute repetitions which were supposed to be at VO2 max pace" from which Tinman concludes, "The extension of the conclusion is simple: When using long, fast reps in an attempt to stimulate or reach VO2 max and sustain it during the workout (achieve the most minutes at VO2 max) use longer recoveries." In the second he cites his own training, "Whenver I trained myself (between seasons on a collegiate team) I either did weekly CV sessions (slower paced intervals) with shorter recoveries or 2 miles worth of longer reps 800-1600m with long recoveries."

Look, Hunter is plenty talented, his pedigree alone would indicate he might be pre disposed to running fast if he took to running instead of something else.

But Malmo is also 100% correct on his point, there are thousands of kids playing HS soccer that can run all day and have plenty of fast twitch.

Now, in the running world of HS, I would say Hunter has already shown to be talented enough. I am sure Tinman was referring to the whole universe of athletes, because saying something else would be a little self serving.

Hunter's father as has been mentioned was very good back in the day , an XC All American etc .

Marc Hunter was a made a World Cross Country team. Fifth at the 1979 National AAUs in 28:40, the same year of Virgins epic 27:39 AR in the heat and wind.

http://more.arrs.net/runner/13295

George, you do not have to explain it to me. I get it.

Believe it or not I know some of the same guys you do over time. Certainly not the number you know.

You may not like me, but we have a few folks in common.

Plus you gave me the "summer of malmo" many years ago now(14). Privately, always appreciated that.

I totally agree with you on this, while we may disagree on some things.

Hunter had genealogy on his side from the beginning. It has been dealt with well. And been handed over.

His toughness is such a good feature. In the "the older you get the smaller the world gets" A guy I worked with 22 years ago has a son on Andrew's team.

It is very hard to run under 8 flat and maybe sub 4 in HS. in fact if he does both, it is absurd, No one in U.S indoors has ever been close.Even though I am 100% certain Webb could have run the under 8 flat as he ran 8:45 two mile on avg flat track winning over a World Class to be Brannen.

I know stats for every every guy back to the Ralph Serna, Kimball , Dave Merrick, Virgin, (Lindgren and Ryun were well before me).Marty Liquori and I know many in that circle. Prefontaine Eric Hulst. Funny I think every guy was so good when you were a kid you could not believe when you read it in Track and Field News .

Funny, when Marty broke four. I know some guys who say , he would never have lost to anyone, not in HS anyway up to two miles and his only mark was 9:04.

If he breaks four tomorrow, it would be something.

I don't like you? Thats news to me. I don't even know you.

I actually love the retro completely accurate stuff, a while ago, you actually helped me out in a big way, back on DyeStat on PM

People I am close with are Ron, Mort, Marcus

From what I am told, while I was never any good, you and I would have great conversations.

Should the long run be at easy pace or moderate pace?

How about this? Over 50% of a coaches input is psychological; if the runner believes in the training (provided it isn't completely bonkers) the runner will perform well. Tough patch in the middle of a 10K? Coach has prepared me for this, I can push through it. In agony after 500 of an 800? No worries, my training has prepared me for this. Hunter clearly has complete faith in his coach; the details of what he actually does in training are of much less importance than this central fact.

If in any doubt about this think Snell & Lydiard, Elliott & Cerutty, Ryun & Timmons, Coe & Coe. Different methods but very similar results because the athlete had total confidence in the training he was given by the coach.

This pdf seems to explain a lot of stuff

http://www.championshipproductions.com/files/xc-02010/Stiles-Critical-Velocity-Article.pdf

Well said Metric Miler.

Remember the post-FL interview with Schwartz? He mentions drew running a mile at the end of mile reapeats in 4:13 or so. Where does that fit into the "CV" pace concept? That's a mile at sub 2-mile pace.

Smoink wrote:

Remember the post-FL interview with Schwartz? He mentions drew running a mile at the end of mile reapeats in 4:13 or so. Where does that fit into the "CV" pace concept? That's a mile at sub 2-mile pace.

That was one of his few hard interval workouts for peaking. He doesn't do that regularly, like the CV workouts

Smoink wrote:

Remember the post-FL interview with Schwartz? He mentions drew running a mile at the end of mile reapeats in 4:13 or so. Where does that fit into the "CV" pace concept? That's a mile at sub 2-mile pace.

I don't know why tinman has chosed 90% VO2max or named it critical value pace, I suspect that he is trying to get runners to train more carefully to avoid peaking too early?

But there will be some faster pace workouts before a mile race. I don't follow his website or Hunter's training, but I do think that a lot of young American runners don't get far beyond the collegiate system due to lack of support and good coaching. All that talent going to waste....