I am honored that I got a reply from the head honchos!
Just curious: What did you not like about the thread title? or, what would have been a better title?
Again, just curious :-)
I am honored that I got a reply from the head honchos!
Just curious: What did you not like about the thread title? or, what would have been a better title?
Again, just curious :-)
reader of the forums 2.0 wrote:
No Way wrote:If this person identifies as female, do you really think they're going to be showing off their wang? None of the girls are going to see anything.
But he will.
He won't.
I'm not sure this is the right decision, but I also don't understand what is so bad about it.
Is the fear simply that high school girls will be uncomfortable? That's a perfectly legitimate fear, and I get it.
That said, by November of my freshman year of high school our team had already done a naked mile and gone skinny dipping a few times. We all saw each other naked and we all turned out fine.
The difference is that we chose to do that. No one put us in the same locker room.
At the risk of hijacking my own thread:
Do you think identifying as a minority will help someone get a scholarship?
https://www.unigo.com/scholarships/minority
Do you think identifying as Native American will help someone get free healthcare or run a casino?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/03/cherokee_perks.html
I mean, if someone with a penis can identify as a woman, then these should be child's play...right?
The Line wrote:
lambic wrote:I understand that this is unfamiliar and can be challenging for many. At some point, we have to decide what is an acceptable reason to be uncomfortable, and what isn't. Think about it this way: what if it was a lesbian student, and the district said that she had to use a separate locker room? What if the student in question was black, and white students were uncomfortable using the same drinking fountain as the black student? Reasonable people can disagree about what is appropriate, but I, and the ACLU, and the Department of Education, agree that "discomfort" in this case is discrimination.
To get more specific: what is the actual worry here? That your daughter would find out what external genitalia look like? If she goes to a D211 school, she's lucky enough to have sex ed as part of a required health class.
Are you afraid that the transgender student is going to behave inappropriately? Because that's not determined by whether the person is transgender or not-- straight, cis-gender students can behave inappropriately in a shared shower situation, too.
What is your actual concern about having a transgender student showering in the vicinity of other students that share her gender identity?
(FWIW, I grew up in the area, and graduated from Palatine HS, a D211 school.)
While there are many who just do not want to accept transgendered people, I am not one of them. Somewhere along the line we decided as a society that there should be boundaries set around seeing each other naked. I am not a very big proponent of censoring the human body, but I am also a little wary of having high school kids of the opposite sex showering together.
To me, this has nothing to do with the girl being transgendered. So what am I scared of? I am not sure. What has out society been scared of since the establishment of men's and women's bathrooms?
Why are we experimenting with High School kids, anyway? We choose the most highly-sexed and hormone-charged age group to run studies on how society can deal with co-ed showers? The whole thing just seems odd.
Personally, I think gender confusion is a real thing and I want to include these folks as much as possible. I am just not sure coed showers is the way to go.
I think we're pretty much in agreement, actually, aside from the specific question about whether this is ok. But the same argument ("What has out society been scared of since the establishment of men's and women's bathrooms?") can be made about many, many practices that were previously accepted. (e.g, before the Supreme Court's Virginia v. Loving decision, "What has society been scared of since the establishment of anti-miscegenation laws?")
I'm not arguing that everyone should be able to shower together. I am arguing that identified gender is a better division than assigned-at-birth sex. Reasonable people can disagree about that, but "this is the way we've always done it" isn't very compelling to me.
our university has remodeled all our dorm shower areas to private individual stalls that have a door and lock. No more rows of showers and rows of toilets. Each new stall has a sink and toilet and a separate shower stall. Students go in and out fully clothed and do their thing in the privacy of locked area. High Schools will soon be following suit. All the teachers, coaches and students i talk to say that no one uses the school showers. Wipe em out and create a few individual stalls and then use the remaining space for a nice team meeting room or conference area or storage or whatever. That being said...
Tolerance really is a two way street folks. As always the vocal and aggressive minority is on a roll and anyone who disagrees with them gets the terrible intolerant label. The majority must comply with the "needs" and "feelings" of the minority.
The insanity of even asking why a parent would not want their adolescent child dressing or showering with a biologically opposite gendered individual is mind blowing. Oops, I apologize for my intolerant last statement.
BRB, heading out to buy a new skirt and blouse!
DiscoGary wrote:
lambic wrote:I understand that this is unfamiliar and can be challenging for many. At some point, we have to decide what is an acceptable reason to be uncomfortable, and what isn't. Think about it this way: what if it was a lesbian student, and the district said that she had to use a separate locker room? What if the student in question was black, and white students were uncomfortable using the same drinking fountain as the black student? Reasonable people can disagree about what is appropriate, but I, and the ACLU, and the Department of Education, agree that "discomfort" in this case is discrimination.
To get more specific: what is the actual worry here? That your daughter would find out what external genitalia look like? If she goes to a D211 school, she's lucky enough to have sex ed as part of a required health class.
Are you afraid that the transgender student is going to behave inappropriately? Because that's not determined by whether the person is transgender or not-- straight, cis-gender students can behave inappropriately in a shared shower situation, too.
What is your actual concern about having a transgender student showering in the vicinity of other students that share her gender identity?
(FWIW, I grew up in the area, and graduated from Palatine HS, a D211 school.)
Well played. Well played.
It's my move. Are you ready?
I am willing to be tolerant of others and their life style choices, their comfort levels, and their sensitivities IF ... a GIANT "if" ... if they are willing to be tolerant of MY life style choices, MY comfort levels, and MY sensitivities.
Sooooooo, I would like to propose a solution to this problem which can accommodate everyone.
Since they intend to force ALL the children in that school to live by one standard whether or not they choose to, I suggest that we put in place a school voucher program that would allow the parents to choose among many local schools, so that the money could follow the child. School choice. This would allow some schools to force everyone to shower together for those who want that kind of life style for their kids, while parents who didn't prefer that could choose a local school without that requirement.
Will our friends on the left accept that compromise? Are they tolerant enough to live and let live without bringing in the iron fist of the Federal Government to force everyone else to live according to their values?
If not, then what are you afraid of?
Your move.
You didn't answer my question. Your response is switch tracking: you're bringing up an unrelated point instead of addressing the ones that I brought up.
To answer your question, take the example of desegregation. While I hope most of us agree that desegregation was the correct choice for schools, it had to be imposed by the federal government. In fact, in the south, school segregation persisted for many years after Brown v. the Board of Education, because of local control and the way folks drew school attendance zones. Schools didn't start integrating until the Supreme Court mandated busing children between school districts, and the response in many parts of the former confederacy was to create private schools instead. If we create a voucher program, it becomes that much easier to continue discriminatory practices and push vulnerable populations into separate and unequal schools.
I would love to slip into a bra and panties while walking around the the girls' locker room.
Well, did you see what happened in Houston last night?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/us/houston-voters-repeal-anti-bias-measure.html?_r=0
I'm not saying that I agree with it, but we're going to see some really strong pushback from Americans. You can say, "Oh, that's just Texas," but Houston is a surprisingly liberal city with a gay mayor. It's also the nations fourth largest city. It's not just a bunch of rednecks.
I don't know where we are heading, but it's clear that people in Washington are out of step with greater America.
I'm sorry that you've been called intolerant.
For what it's worth, I think the solution above is a perfectly acceptable one-- then no one is singled out.
I don't disagree that tolerance is a two-way street, but you have to have context. Trans folks are much, much, much more likely to be bullied, assaulted, to have mental health issues, to be homeless, etc. When for one side, tolerance is a matter of survival, and for the other side, tolerance is a matter of being called something unpleasant, the response is going to be asymmetrical.
I don't think that your last statement was intolerant, but my previous question was in earnest: what are you specifically afraid of? I understand that we're coming from different places, and that to you it's obvious, but I'd appreciate it if you explained it to me.
If the central argument for allowing this person to use the girls' locker room is that their gender is female despite their sex being male, doesn't this beg the question of why we're using gender instead of sex as the locker room designation in the first place? I suppose you could have four locker rooms, depending on what you want...
1, Male (gender) only room
2, Female (gender) only room
3, Male (sex) only room
4, Female (sex) only room
If you are anatomically male, you can use 1 or 3, if you're anatomically female you can use 2 or 4, if you're trans MtF you can use 2 or 3, and if you're trans FtM you can use 1 or 4. Everyone has access to 2 of the 4 rooms.
Thanks for the civil reply - I guess what I am against or opposed to (not afraid of) is having a random moral code shoved down my throat in the name of tolerance and being labeled with any number of negative terms because I strongly disagree with those morals. Again, it works both ways and for a couple hundred years the US has been loosely governed or led by a somewhat Judeao-Christian moral code. The times are changing and we can argue for better or for worse but accusations and insults are being hurled at anyone who dares to oppose any of it. I am a staunch independent and have been since I started voting 40 years ago. I try to look at both sides of each issue independently. This is not being done very much by either the liberal or conservative crowds. Not much tolerance being shown on either side.
Please if you will, respond to my last statement about the insanity of questioning a parent about why they might be concerned having their young daughter sharing a dressing room with a biological boy. How in the world is offering a separate dressing room to the young person not in the best interests of everyone involved. No no no the vocal minority cannot stand for that rational approach. A vast majority of Americans are shaking their heads at this one and it is not because they are intolerant it is because they are rational and right.
lambic wrote:
Trans folks are much, much, much more likely ... to have mental health issues...
Just pointing something out: some might say that identifying as something that you clearly are not would BE a mental health issue...
I mean, if I identify as President of the United States, who is the Secret Service to tell me I can't go into the White House???
I realize that my argument is somewhat trollish, but where do we draw the line???
The answer is so obvious you must be posing the question rhetorically, but I'll go ahead for the benefit of othets who don't have a clue about whats really going on: If the boy showers at home his backers lose the opportunity of bringing a test case which may create a new legal precedent which in turn will mainstream, through the operation of the rule of law, their fringe beliefs which are actually a front for something else which has little to do with equality or tolerance. This is how the left has worked in this country for decades, through the judicial system, with their allies and useful idiots in the media, the classroom, and Hollywood conditioning people's attitudes and beliefs.And when you call them out on it, they've been instructed to respond with vitriol, character assassination, ridicule, charges of intolerance, homophobia, and so on. It's not called a cultural war for nothing.
Seeker of Equality wrote:
LGBTQFDGDFGDF wrote:Your daughter doesn't have to shower at school.
And neither does the transgender individual whose feelings you value above all else. Why aren't you in favor of having the tranny shower elsewhere?
Tricky stuff. Not sure it was the right decision. Not sure what the right decision would be. A weenie in the girls room is not a particularly great idea, in my opinion.
It's important to remember transgender people are here to stay, we've always been here and we are not going anywhere. We are not abnormal, unusual, strange, or bad. We are, plain and simple, transgendered.
lambic wrote:
You didn't answer my question. Your response is switch tracking: you're bringing up an unrelated point instead of addressing the ones that I brought up.
To answer your question, take the example of desegregation. While I hope most of us agree that desegregation was the correct choice for schools, it had to be imposed by the federal government. In fact, in the south, school segregation persisted for many years after Brown v. the Board of Education, because of local control and the way folks drew school attendance zones. Schools didn't start integrating until the Supreme Court mandated busing children between school districts, and the response in many parts of the former confederacy was to create private schools instead. If we create a voucher program, it becomes that much easier to continue discriminatory practices and push vulnerable populations into separate and unequal schools.
I don't want naked guys showering with my daughters. If someone tries to force my daughters to shower with naked guys, then they are going to be in a world of hurt. YOU are the one who should be afraid. You are going too far and it will cost you. Does that answer your question?
I can see that your opposition to school vouchers is precisely because you don't want to let people choose the kind of school they send their kids to. You want to make sure everyone HAS to send their kids to a school where only government approved methods of re-education are taught, and government approved values are forced on everyone.
This is what I mean when I talk about leftist fascism. Autocratic control over the lives of everyone, usually using the sins of the fathers to punish the kids.
Do you concede, are do you want to continue with this rhetorical rout?
DiscoGary wrote:
I don't want naked guys showering with my daughters. If someone tries to force my daughters to shower with naked guys, then they are going to be in a world of hurt. YOU are the one who should be afraid. You are going too far and it will cost you. Does that answer your question?
Gary,
Guess what? Your daughters are already showering with lesbians. They're already getting naked around other girls who find them sexually attractive. Are they going to be in a "world of hurt" too?
Does anyone in this thread actually know or remember what it's like to be a high school boy? "I know, I'll change my gender identity, dress as a girl every day, come out as transgendered, and then I'll see BOOBS!"
closet cleaner wrote:
DiscoGary wrote:I don't want naked guys showering with my daughters. If someone tries to force my daughters to shower with naked guys, then they are going to be in a world of hurt. YOU are the one who should be afraid. You are going too far and it will cost you. Does that answer your question?
Gary,
Guess what? Your daughters are already showering with lesbians. They're already getting naked around other girls who find them sexually attractive. Are they going to be in a "world of hurt" too?
Does anyone in this thread actually know or remember what it's like to be a high school boy? "I know, I'll change my gender identity, dress as a girl every day, come out as transgendered, and then I'll see BOOBS!"
Houston just voted to keep men in drag from using women's bathrooms.
http://www.chron.com/politics/election/local/article/HERO-results-6608562.phpMost people are on my side on this one. Liberal insanity has outrun America's tolerance for stupidity.
DiscoGary wrote:
Houston just voted to keep men in drag from using women's bathrooms.
http://www.chron.com/politics/election/local/article/HERO-results-6608562.phpMost people are on my side on this one. Liberal insanity has outrun America's tolerance for stupidity.
So are you okay with lesbians showering with your daughters?
closet cleaner wrote:
DiscoGary wrote:Houston just voted to keep men in drag from using women's bathrooms.
http://www.chron.com/politics/election/local/article/HERO-results-6608562.phpMost people are on my side on this one. Liberal insanity has outrun America's tolerance for stupidity.
So are you okay with lesbians showering with your daughters?
Keep going with this. Try to convince all the fathers in America that they are ignorant intolerant bigots just because they don't want naked guys showering with their daughters. You are winning. Keep going!
The Feds are being too nice about this. Shouldn't we put the 211 school board in jail for not upholding Federal Law like we did with that marriage license woman? THAT would send a message that the Federal Government will tolerate no divergence from the politically correct orthodoxy. Got to break some eggs to make the Utopian omelet you know.
Beat down dissent with an iron fist. Yeah, that's the ticket.