Portland Track Festival Discussion

Cain has run faster for 800, 1500, one mile, 3000, two miles, and 5000 then any other American high school female runner . . . period.

someone had to do it wrote:

No

She has the 3000m indoor record.

She does not have the 3000m outdoor, 2 mile outdoor, or mile outdoor.

Montesquieu wrote:

Cain has run faster for 800, 1500, one mile, 3000, two miles, and 5000 then any other American high school female runner . . . period.

No one is disputing that

Indoor records =/= outdoor records

Hence

She does not have the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, or the mile.

She does have the HS record for 3000m indoors, 2 miles indoors, and the mile indoors.

She also is the fastest overall at those distances.

It is incorrect however to say that she has the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, and the mile.

someone had to do it wrote:

No one is disputing that

Indoor records =/= outdoor records

Hence

She does not have the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, or the mile.

She does have the HS record for 3000m indoors, 2 miles indoors, and the mile indoors.

She also is the fastest overall at those distances.

It is incorrect however to say that she has the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, and the mile.

If you're going to argue semantics, do it right.

It is NOT incorrect to say she has the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, and the mile. She is the fastest high schooler ever to race those distances under any conditions, is she not?

What you're really arguing, without realizing it, is that it would be incorrect to state that Cain is the OUTDOOR record holder in those events. Which, of course, she is not.

But she is the indoor record holder in all three, and combining all high school times, without the qualifier of indoor/outdoor, she's still the fastest. So she's the high school record holder at those distances, isn't she?

You'd have to add in the outdoor qualifier for the statement to be incorrect.

The Single Voice of Reason wrote:

If you're going to argue semantics, do it right.

It is NOT incorrect to say she has the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, and the mile. She is the fastest high schooler ever to race those distances under any conditions, is she not?

What you're really arguing, without realizing it, is that it would be incorrect to state that Cain is the OUTDOOR record holder in those events. Which, of course, she is not.

But she is the indoor record holder in all three, and combining all high school times, without the qualifier of indoor/outdoor, she's still the fastest. So she's the high school record holder at those distances, isn't she?

You'd have to add in the outdoor qualifier for the statement to be incorrect.

Wrong

3000m means something specific in the context of records

It means outdoors

3000i = 3000 meters indoors

3000 = 3000 meters outdoors

If this were not the case then Steve Prefontaine for instance would not have been the high school record holder for 2 miles because his 2 mile time of 8:41.5 set in 1969 was slower than Gerry Lindgren's high school record for 2 miles indoors of 8:40.0 set in 1964.

Hence

She does not have the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, or the mile.

She does have the HS record for 3000m indoors, 2 miles indoors, and the mile indoors.

She also is the fastest overall at those distances.

It is incorrect however to say that she has the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, and the mile.

goodgod people,

She has the best in all the events, but doesn't have all the records in both indoors and outdoors yet. I wanna see her run a mile and either a 3k or 2 mile after USATF's so she can take down those records.

Usually indoor records are slower so you qualifying them by saying "indoor record" and outdoor records are faster so they are just called records. But in this case her indoor records are faster than the outdoor records so unless you are completely anal its perfectly reasonable to say she has all the records from 800 to 5k because she has the fastest times in the 800,15,mile,3k,2mile,5k. I guess technically she'd still need the 1000m indoors, that's the only race in that range that is run a decent amount in high school.

So next year she should race an 800 and 1000 indoors, i suppose she has the 1500 from her mile split if they took it. And she needs to run a mile, 3k, and 2mile outdoors to have ALL the records. So with 5 races she can have all the records from 800 up! It's kinda weird talking about the 1500 and 3k records for high school because those are non-events in high school. But since she's running pro meets I guess she'll be running those more often than the high school 3200/2mile and 1600/mile races.

someone had to do it wrote:

Wrong

3000m means something specific in the context of records

It means outdoors

3000i = 3000 meters indoors

3000 = 3000 meters outdoors

If this were not the case then Steve Prefontaine for instance would not have been the high school record holder for 2 miles because his 2 mile time of 8:41.5 set in 1969 was slower than Gerry Lindgren's high school record for 2 miles indoors of 8:40.0 set in 1964.

Hence

She does not have the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, or the mile.

She does have the HS record for 3000m indoors, 2 miles indoors, and the mile indoors.

She also is the fastest overall at those distances.

It is incorrect however to say that she has the HS record for 3000m, 2 miles, and the mile.[/quote]

Not wrong. Prefontaine was the high school OUTDOOR record holder for 2 miles. Lindgren was the indoor record holder. Lindgren had the faster time, and therefore if we were asking for an outright record holder, it has to be him. But no one else is that concerned with an "outright record holder" type statement, since it's obvious already from the times.

Archie of Riverdale wrote:

I wonder why they would want to use the 5K as the backup race. Given he 800 at Pre one would think that would be her backup in case the 1500 goes wrong.

It's spelled S-C-H-E-D-U-L-E.

The 800 and 1500 prelims are 1:10 apart on Thursday and the 1500 is second.

5000 final is Sunday - the day after 1500 final. No reason not to enter the 5000 except for the fact you are ruining someone else's chances of running in the meet as USATF normally won't add people for some stupid reason.

The Single Voice of Reason wrote:

Not wrong. Prefontaine was the high school OUTDOOR record holder for 2 miles. Lindgren was the indoor record holder. Lindgren had the faster time, and therefore if we were asking for an outright record holder, it has to be him. But no one else is that concerned with an "outright record holder" type statement, since it's obvious already from the times.

Wrong

Pre held the outdoor record.

The outdoor record is called the 2 mile record.

The indoor record is called the indoor 2 mile record.

It would have been incorrect to say that Gerry held the HS 2 mile record.

Which is why in my first post in this three I pointed out it was incorrect to say that that cain held the HS mile, 3000m, and 2 mile records.

someone had to do it wrote:

Wrong

Pre held the outdoor record.

The outdoor record is called the 2 mile record.

The indoor record is called the indoor 2 mile record.

It would have been incorrect to say that Gerry held the HS 2 mile record.

Which is why in my first post in this three I pointed out it was incorrect to say that that cain held the HS mile, 3000m, and 2 mile records.

You can think whatever you want, even if you're wrong. The problem with your argument is the bolded -- YOU have decided that is fact, whereas it's actually not a distinction anyone else bothers to make. Calling something the "two mile record" just means it was two miles, not that it was outdoors. You perceive outdoors as more important (as does everyone else, myself included) so you think that if there's not something else said specifically, the outright record is automatically the outdoor one. Not so. The high school record for 2 miles (linguistically, semantically) refers to the fastest high schooler to cover two miles in a track and field event. Which, in your example, was Lindgren.

You're just making stuff up. Not that it really matters anyway -- every educated fan knows the difference w/o the qualifying statements. I just get tired of people making definitive statements that flat out aren't held up by an argument.

[quote]yesas wrote:

alright she ran a 15:45, can people finally stop the ridiculous notion that she can run in the low 15:20's or go after the World A-standard. I figured she could run in the 15:40's, maybe high 15:30's, and apparently that was spot on. She closed the last 800 well, which means she could probably run 15:40 if she attacked the race a little bit more in that second mile.

Hopefully this is a troll. She barely dips under the USA "A" standard closing in 2:22 for her last 800? Obviously she was just there to get the "A" and nothing more. Like a few have said in this thread, an all out 5k would be super taxing for her this close to nats.

Wrong

Pre held the outdoor record.

The outdoor record is called the 2 mile record.

The indoor record is called the indoor 2 mile record.

It would have been incorrect to say that Gerry held the HS 2 mile record.

Which is why in my first post in this thread I pointed out that it was incorrect to say that that cain held the HS mile, 3000m, and 2 mile records.

Senor Senior wrote:

Hopefully this is a troll. She barely dips under the USA "A" standard closing in 2:22 for her last 800? Obviously she was just there to get the "A" and nothing more. Like a few have said in this thread, an all out 5k would be super taxing for her this close to nats.

People keep referencing a 2:22 last 800m, which might be accurate, but she didn't go the last 800m. Cain closed in 65 with a close to sub 31 last 200m. She started moving with 600 left. I am not saying Cain couldn't run faster, but I do think the race was either harder from a mental or physical standpoint than she might have anticipated. My guess is it was harder to maintain mental focus given her goal of just hitting the standard. I can't see an athlete 100% cruising along leaving it to a 65 last 400m to come within a half a second of the standard. She might be able to run fast, but I do believe she was either struggling a little, or lost some mental focus from 2600-4400m.