I didn't say that!
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10
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nysouthrunner wrote:
Feel like I'm talking to a wall every time I post about this. The spikes are EVEN BETTER than people think. All the 30-40 year olds on here, who haven't worn spikes in years, just don't get it. 10-15 seconds over 3200, 20-25 over 5000.
It's not just the spikes, it's the superfoam trainers as well. More kids are putting in more miles with a lower risk of getting hurt in the process and that inordinately benefits the 3200/5k distances. If it were anything else (gray area stuff, drugs etc) we would expect a similar improvement across the board in a variety of events and I don't think we are seeing that. It's early yet so it's really hard to say but so far this year it's looking like a pretty average year in most other track events. Even the 1600/mile looks pretty typical so far and it's probably a below average year in the boys 800, only 3 boys have broken 1:50 so far that I'm aware of and 2 were at Arcadia. Of course the superspikes/supershoes don't help the 800 much if at all and not nearly as dramatically in the 1600 as the 3200.
80 -
Kaden Evans from AF ran a 8:46 at Arcadia. 2 years ago his 3200 PR (that I can find) was 11:25
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Good points by Temby and CO Coach above. Shoe tech advances have not only enhanced performance, but enabled quicker recovery as well. Over time, that is bound to have a cumulative effect, broadly speaking.
As far as other events in track & field, you simply aren't seeing the kinds of wholesale advances in prep performances that you're seeing the distances; no dozens and dozens of boys running 10.25 or faster in the 100m, or 45.5 in the 400, or leaping 27+ feet in the LJ & 53+ feet in the TJ, or topping 75 feet in the boys shot, etc etc etc. (the equivalent for girl's non-distance events).
We're in a new world as far as prep distance running goes. This will all eventually plateau unless the tech gets even more amazing (and I'm not advocating for a return to lower quality shoes, tracks, and coaching, generally speaking), but comparing performances by time today to runners of yesteryear will only get more tenuous in the seasons to come. Even so, it makes you realize what an anomalous era the mid-1960s to roughly the beginning of the 1980s were, when kids were running 8:36 to the low 8:50s regularly because of rather insane (in many cases) mileage and/or endless interval totals.
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I have my kids wear super spikes in workouts only. I’m not sure that helps so much.
Any NY’ers here? I coach a NY HS team and we’re not great. My guys run 30-50mpw… do a healthy mix of threshold work and v02 max work and strides. They’re training well. But they’re 10:00-11:00 2 milers. Every now and then we’ll have a 9:20 guy or 4:teens guys… but those are 1990s times. Soccer and lacrosse are much bigger sports in my town… maybe that is true for all of new York and we’re just not getting the talented kids coming out for cross and track?
I feel like I’m training these guys with the latest methods. Not like when I was in school and we ran 15-20mpw. l didn’t know what tempo or threshold was and just pounded 200s and 400s. Though I ran faster in the mid 1990s than my athletes know doing “modern” training.
Tons of meets in NY won in 10:00 and 4:30. The top New Yorkers are not fast on a national stage and the depth is poor. Why?
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Peach Pit wrote:
This is what happens when you realize 4:20 isn't fast.
Ethan Edgeworth running an Alabama record of 8:38 (4:23/4:15 splits) is crazy to me. Ethan Strand won doubles or triples at state for 4 years, and he set a totally new standard when he ran 8:59 in 2021. I think he was top 5 in the NCAA mile this year.
8:38 is just on a totally different level, and he can clearly run faster with splits like that. And he was 6th. Didn't Centro win Arcadia in like 8:40? 7 guys tonight ran under 8:40, and 8th was the NXN champ who ran sub-4 indoors. 27 under 8:50, and 36 under 9.
I'd agree with your title, but I'd say "We are at the peak of US High School Distance Running so far". Honestly, next year if they just went out a couple seconds faster, they could average significantly faster. Tonight, the top guys were running 65s, then closed in 57. LV's record is on borrowed time.
Being the fastest/GOAT high schooler ever is a curse unless you are insanely successful as a pro as well.
These guys should be running 3000m’s to be relative to the rest of the world at their ages. People run different times than other greats at different ages.
Cameron Myers ran 7:46 as a 17-year old, faster than Jakob at that age. Do we think Verzbicas could run that time? Jakob is now 23 and has run 7:23/7:54. That’s what I’m interested in.If you run faster than Centrowitz in high school but don’t have a better ncaa or pro career, are you part of the “peak high school distance running era”?
Centro has an Olympic gold, an Olympic 4th, WC silver and WC bronze. That’s the goal, not being the fastest high schooler ever.
No one really cares about world junior championship medals.
If some of these dudes run faster times than previous high schoolers, but don’t end up being ncaa champs or running in the World Championships or Olympic finals, then it doesn’t matter to me in terms of high school greatness.
High school is a stepping stone.Ritzenhein, Webb, Hall, Solinsky, Tegenkamp, Centrowitz, Manzano, Rupp, Fisher achieved a lot more than Veronica’s who had a faster 2-mile time. Those guys listed and are who these high schoolers are going to be compared against.
we’ll see how this new crop does against the rest of the world.
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Al Toon wrote:
Any NY’ers here? I coach a NY HS team and we’re not great. My guys run 30-50mpw… do a healthy mix of threshold work and v02 max work and strides. They’re training well. But they’re 10:00-11:00 2 milers. Every now and then we’ll have a 9:20 guy or 4:teens guys… but those are 1990s times.
30-50mpw is leaving 20s on the table versus 60-70. It is easy to write that on a msg board. It is a lot different to have the culture to do that.
It would be interesting to know how many sub 9 kids are coming from powerhouse programs versus 1 offs. My impression is that most kids are coming from solid programs. You tend (it does happen, see Gary Martin) not get a 8:50 kid and the next kid being a 10:10. I am not sure how many slow kids are posti ng everything on strava but it feels like you could do some type of meta analysis of programs. Link up with tffrs and see what the progression differences are…
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Ffffff wrote:
Al Toon wrote:
Any NY’ers here? I coach a NY HS team and we’re not great. My guys run 30-50mpw… do a healthy mix of threshold work and v02 max work and strides. They’re training well. But they’re 10:00-11:00 2 milers. Every now and then we’ll have a 9:20 guy or 4:teens guys… but those are 1990s times.
30-50mpw is leaving 20s on the table versus 60-70. It is easy to write that on a msg board. It is a lot different to have the culture to do that.
It would be interesting to know how many sub 9 kids are coming from powerhouse programs versus 1 offs. My impression is that most kids are coming from solid programs. You tend (it does happen, see Gary Martin) not get a 8:50 kid and the next kid being a 10:10. I am not sure how many slow kids are posti ng everything on strava but it feels like you could do some type of meta analysis of programs. Link up with tffrs and see what the progression differences are…
We never ran more than 50 and it was mostly 40 mpw. But we had a 9:30 guy every other year (pre-super shoes) who'd run between 4:15 and 4:25 in the 1600 (think low-ish 1:50s, <4:15). Our XC times were even worse - sub 16 was probably ever 5 years.
I think we'd have had those people be running <4:10, <9:00 if we averaged 65-70 mpw consistently in supershoes.
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round and round wrote:
Peach Pit wrote:
This is what happens when you realize 4:20 isn't fast.
Ethan Edgeworth running an Alabama record of 8:38 (4:23/4:15 splits) is crazy to me. Ethan Strand won doubles or triples at state for 4 years, and he set a totally new standard when he ran 8:59 in 2021. I think he was top 5 in the NCAA mile this year.
8:38 is just on a totally different level, and he can clearly run faster with splits like that. And he was 6th. Didn't Centro win Arcadia in like 8:40? 7 guys tonight ran under 8:40, and 8th was the NXN champ who ran sub-4 indoors. 27 under 8:50, and 36 under 9.
I'd agree with your title, but I'd say "We are at the peak of US High School Distance Running so far". Honestly, next year if they just went out a couple seconds faster, they could average significantly faster. Tonight, the top guys were running 65s, then closed in 57. LV's record is on borrowed time.
Being the fastest/GOAT high schooler ever is a curse unless you are insanely successful as a pro as well.
These guys should be running 3000m’s to be relative to the rest of the world at their ages. People run different times than other greats at different ages.
Cameron Myers ran 7:46 as a 17-year old, faster than Jakob at that age. Do we think Verzbicas could run that time? Jakob is now 23 and has run 7:23/7:54. That’s what I’m interested in.If you run faster than Centrowitz in high school but don’t have a better ncaa or pro career, are you part of the “peak high school distance running era”?
Centro has an Olympic gold, an Olympic 4th, WC silver and WC bronze. That’s the goal, not being the fastest high schooler ever.
No one really cares about world junior championship medals.
If some of these dudes run faster times than previous high schoolers, but don’t end up being ncaa champs or running in the World Championships or Olympic finals, then it doesn’t matter to me in terms of high school greatness.
High school is a stepping stone.Ritzenhein, Webb, Hall, Solinsky, Tegenkamp, Centrowitz, Manzano, Rupp, Fisher achieved a lot more than Veronica’s who had a faster 2-mile time. Those guys listed and are who these high schoolers are going to be compared against.
we’ll see how this new crop does against the rest of the world.
By Veronica, I guess you mean Lukas Vezbicas. The reason he didn’t achieve much after HS was because he suffered a career ending injury in a bike crash at age 19.
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Yeah, no... wrote:
Louis Vuitton wrote:
LV is Louis Vuitton, not Lukas V
In this forum, until another HS boy joins the sub-4 / sub-8:30 club... LV is Lukas.
Also the only one to win NXN and Footlocker in the same season.
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Not so fast my friend wrote:
The spikes have been exactly the same since 2021. Why to the high schoolers continue to get faster 4 seasons later
Belief that they can do it, examples of those who have all around, many paced races with top runners from around the country to maximize. It really should tell all of us that a lot of the sport is mental. You have to dream it to do it. Set high goals. That doesn't mean you will succeed, but 67 ran sub-9 at one meet.
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4:20 is not that fast wrote:
round and round wrote:
Being the fastest/GOAT high schooler ever is a curse unless you are insanely successful as a pro as well.
These guys should be running 3000m’s to be relative to the rest of the world at their ages. People run different times than other greats at different ages.
Cameron Myers ran 7:46 as a 17-year old, faster than Jakob at that age. Do we think Verzbicas could run that time? Jakob is now 23 and has run 7:23/7:54. That’s what I’m interested in.If you run faster than Centrowitz in high school but don’t have a better ncaa or pro career, are you part of the “peak high school distance running era”?
Centro has an Olympic gold, an Olympic 4th, WC silver and WC bronze. That’s the goal, not being the fastest high schooler ever.
No one really cares about world junior championship medals.
If some of these dudes run faster times than previous high schoolers, but don’t end up being ncaa champs or running in the World Championships or Olympic finals, then it doesn’t matter to me in terms of high school greatness.
High school is a stepping stone.Ritzenhein, Webb, Hall, Solinsky, Tegenkamp, Centrowitz, Manzano, Rupp, Fisher achieved a lot more than Veronica’s who had a faster 2-mile time. Those guys listed and are who these high schoolers are going to be compared against.
we’ll see how this new crop does against the rest of the world.
By Veronica, I guess you mean Lukas Vezbicas. The reason he didn’t achieve much after HS was because he suffered a career ending injury in a bike crash at age 19.
Yes!
sorry, autocorrect.
Verzbicas didn’t pursue running even before the crash.
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Aqedr wrote:
Aqedr wrote:
8:45 is the new 9:00
In 2018, Drew Bosley ran 8:59.04 for 16th. 17th was Strangio in 9:00.2. Further back was Dylan Jacobs, who was a senior at the time, in 9:06 for 23rd.
…and Nico Young, who was a Soph, ran 9:26 for 38th in the rated category
…and what was the winning time in 2018?
8:50.95
(Basically 30th on Saturday)
Supershoes have much greater effect on teenage boys than world class men.
The effect is HUGE.
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High School Runner (3200 and 2 mile conversion all-time list)
Lukas verzbicas - 8:26.51c (2011)
Simeon Birnbaum - 8:31.12c (2023)
Connor Burns - 8:31.35c (2023)
German Fernandez - 8:31.42 (2008)
Drew Griffith - 8:31.92c (2024) - new balance
Rocky Hansen - 8:32.23c (2024)
Jeff Nelson - 8:33.31c (1979)
Colin Salhman - 8:33.31 (2022)
Daniel Simmons - 8:34.13 (2023) - arcadia 2023
Nathan Neil - 8:35.32 (2024)
Lex Young - 8:35.71 (2022)
Gerry Lindgren - 8:36.98c (1964)
Craig Virgin - 8:37.88c (1955)
Ryan Pajak - 8:38.02 (2024)
Ben Jaster - 8:38.34 (2024)
Steve Prefontaine - 8:38.48c (1969)
Ethan Edgeworth - 8:38.49 (2024)
Andrew Hunter - 8:39.48c (2015)
Riley Smith - 8:39.71 (2024)
Josiah Tostenson - 8:39.89 (2024)
Nico Young - 8:40.0 (2019)
Jojo Jourdon - 8:40.46 (2024)
Emmanuel Perez - 8:40.47 (2024)
Grant Fisher - 8:40.53c (2015)
Cole Sprout - 8:40.73 (2019)
Joe Rosa - 8:41.02c (2010)
Owen Powell - 8:41.03 - (2024)
Porter Middaugh - 8:41.05 (2024)
Dathan Ritzenhein - 8:41.10 (2000)
Will Conway - 8:41.18 (2024)
Clay Shively - 8:41.29 (2024)
Dane Eike - 8:41.40 (2024)
Patrick Koon - 8:41.46 (2024)
Cooper Teare - 8:41.46 (2017)note: Lukas Verzbicas’s 8:26.51c comes from a professional race. He was the only high schooler on the all-time list that had this opportunity.
In summary:Drew Griffith currently has the #5 fastest 3200/2mile ever for a high schooler
Daniel Simmons is at #10
Nathan Neil is at #11
Ryan Pajak #15
Ben Jaster #16
Ethan Edgeworth #18
Josiah Tostenson #21
Jojo Jourdon #23
Emmanuel Perez #24
Owen Powell #28
Porter Middaugh #29
Will Conway #31
Dane Eike #33
Patrick Koon #3470 -
16 of the fastest 35 3200/2mile high school times come from clas wrote:
High School Runner (3200 and 2 mile conversion all-time list)
Lukas verzbicas - 8:26.51c (2011)
Simeon Birnbaum - 8:31.12c (2023)
Connor Burns - 8:31.35c (2023)
German Fernandez - 8:31.42 (2008)
Drew Griffith - 8:31.92c (2024) - new balance
Rocky Hansen - 8:32.23c (2024)
Jeff Nelson - 8:33.31c (1979)
Colin Salhman - 8:33.31 (2022)
Daniel Simmons - 8:34.13 (2023) - arcadia 2023
Nathan Neil - 8:35.32 (2024)
Lex Young - 8:35.71 (2022)
Gerry Lindgren - 8:36.98c (1964)
Craig Virgin - 8:37.88c (1955)
Ryan Pajak - 8:38.02 (2024)
Ben Jaster - 8:38.34 (2024)
Steve Prefontaine - 8:38.48c (1969)
Ethan Edgeworth - 8:38.49 (2024)
Andrew Hunter - 8:39.48c (2015)
Riley Smith - 8:39.71 (2024)
Josiah Tostenson - 8:39.89 (2024)
Nico Young - 8:40.0 (2019)
Jojo Jourdon - 8:40.46 (2024)
Emmanuel Perez - 8:40.47 (2024)
Grant Fisher - 8:40.53c (2015)
Cole Sprout - 8:40.73 (2019)
Joe Rosa - 8:41.02c (2010)
Owen Powell - 8:41.03 - (2024)
Porter Middaugh - 8:41.05 (2024)
Dathan Ritzenhein - 8:41.10 (2000)
Will Conway - 8:41.18 (2024)
Clay Shively - 8:41.29 (2024)
Dane Eike - 8:41.40 (2024)
Patrick Koon - 8:41.46 (2024)
Cooper Teare - 8:41.46 (2017)note: Lukas Verzbicas’s 8:26.51c comes from a professional race. He was the only high schooler on the all-time list that had this opportunity.
In summary:Drew Griffith currently has the #5 fastest 3200/2mile ever for a high schooler
Daniel Simmons is at #10
Nathan Neil is at #11
Ryan Pajak #15
Ben Jaster #16
Ethan Edgeworth #18
Josiah Tostenson #21
Jojo Jourdon #23
Emmanuel Perez #24
Owen Powell #28
Porter Middaugh #29
Will Conway #31
Dane Eike #33
Patrick Koon #34Leo Young 8:39.57 in 2022.
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16 of the fastest 35 3200/2mile high school times come from clas wrote:
High School Runner (3200 and 2 mile conversion all-time list)
Lukas verzbicas - 8:26.51c (2011)
Simeon Birnbaum - 8:31.12c (2023)
Connor Burns - 8:31.35c (2023)
German Fernandez - 8:31.42 (2008)
Drew Griffith - 8:31.92c (2024) - new balance
Rocky Hansen - 8:32.23c (2024)
Jeff Nelson - 8:33.31c (1979)Jeff NELson
…
But what about Jeff WILson? He ran a 4:12 1600 but what about a 3200? Did he run that at all?
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PensacolaRunner wrote:
My high school has a freshman who just ran a 9:03.9 2-mile saturday in Alabama (and he lead the entire way). We are from Florida, so we know Marcelo, who ran 8:50 at Arcadia (in fact, these two went 2-4 at the state XC meet behind Patrick Koon). Have any freshman ever run faster than these two??
Lukas Verzbicas- 8:53 full 2-mile
Keegan Smith- 8:52 3200
30 -
16 of the fastest 35 3200/2mile high school times come from clas wrote:
High School Runner (3200 and 2 mile conversion all-time list)
Lukas verzbicas - 8:26.51c (2011)
Simeon Birnbaum - 8:31.12c (2023)
Connor Burns - 8:31.35c (2023)
German Fernandez - 8:31.42 (2008)
Drew Griffith - 8:31.92c (2024) - new balance
Rocky Hansen - 8:32.23c (2024)
Jeff Nelson - 8:33.31c (1979)
Colin Salhman - 8:33.31 (2022)
Daniel Simmons - 8:34.13 (2023) - arcadia 2023
Nathan Neil - 8:35.32 (2024)
Lex Young - 8:35.71 (2022)
Gerry Lindgren - 8:36.98c (1964)
Craig Virgin - 8:37.88c (1955)
Ryan Pajak - 8:38.02 (2024)
Ben Jaster - 8:38.34 (2024)
Steve Prefontaine - 8:38.48c (1969)
Ethan Edgeworth - 8:38.49 (2024)
Andrew Hunter - 8:39.48c (2015)
Riley Smith - 8:39.71 (2024)
Josiah Tostenson - 8:39.89 (2024)
Nico Young - 8:40.0 (2019)
Jojo Jourdon - 8:40.46 (2024)
Emmanuel Perez - 8:40.47 (2024)
Grant Fisher - 8:40.53c (2015)
Cole Sprout - 8:40.73 (2019)
Joe Rosa - 8:41.02c (2010)
Owen Powell - 8:41.03 - (2024)
Porter Middaugh - 8:41.05 (2024)
Dathan Ritzenhein - 8:41.10 (2000)
Will Conway - 8:41.18 (2024)
Clay Shively - 8:41.29 (2024)
Dane Eike - 8:41.40 (2024)
Patrick Koon - 8:41.46 (2024)
Cooper Teare - 8:41.46 (2017)note: Lukas Verzbicas’s 8:26.51c comes from a professional race. He was the only high schooler on the all-time list that had this opportunity.
In summary:Drew Griffith currently has the #5 fastest 3200/2mile ever for a high schooler
Daniel Simmons is at #10
Nathan Neil is at #11
Ryan Pajak #15
Ben Jaster #16
Ethan Edgeworth #18
Josiah Tostenson #21
Jojo Jourdon #23
Emmanuel Perez #24
Owen Powell #28
Porter Middaugh #29
Will Conway #31
Dane Eike #33
Patrick Koon #34Nice list but you are missing many runners with superb 2 miles you did not convert to 3200m:
-Hobbs Kessler (8:39.04)
-Tyrone Gorze (8:39.61)
-Matthew Centrowitz (8:41.55)
-Nathan Mountain (8:42.16)
-Hunter Jones (8:43.71)
-Parker Wolfe (8:43.91)
-Eric Reynolds (8:44.00)
-Alan Scharsu (8:44.03)
-Clay Shively (8:44.29)
50 -
100% wrote:
Ffffff wrote:
30-50mpw is leaving 20s on the table versus 60-70. It is easy to write that on a msg board. It is a lot different to have the culture to do that.
It would be interesting to know how many sub 9 kids are coming from powerhouse programs versus 1 offs. My impression is that most kids are coming from solid programs. You tend (it does happen, see Gary Martin) not get a 8:50 kid and the next kid being a 10:10. I am not sure how many slow kids are posti ng everything on strava but it feels like you could do some type of meta analysis of programs. Link up with tffrs and see what the progression differences are…
We never ran more than 50 and it was mostly 40 mpw. But we had a 9:30 guy every other year (pre-super shoes) who'd run between 4:15 and 4:25 in the 1600 (think low-ish 1:50s, <4:15). Our XC times were even worse - sub 16 was probably ever 5 years.
I think we'd have had those people be running <4:10, <9:00 if we averaged 65-70 mpw consistently in supershoes.
Yeah 10 mpw turns that 4:20/9:30 kid into that 4:15/9:00 kid. Supershoes get you a few more seconds when racing. Again it is to say just run more but the reality is that a lot of us tried and the combo of somewhat crappy shoes and doing easy runs a hair to fast (they might have been ok for the 9:20 kid but the rest of running 9:55 were a hair to fast) and having basically no prehab(that stretching probably hurt) caused a lot of missed training.
I can sort of explain HS improvements. Some explain what the pro groups are doing to get such insane improvements. How many people are dropping 15+s off already fast 5k times?
20 -
FastBruddas wrote:
16 of the fastest 35 3200/2mile high school times come from clas wrote:
High School Runner (3200 and 2 mile conversion all-time list)
Lukas verzbicas - 8:26.51c (2011)
Simeon Birnbaum - 8:31.12c (2023)
Connor Burns - 8:31.35c (2023)
German Fernandez - 8:31.42 (2008)
Drew Griffith - 8:31.92c (2024) - new balance
Rocky Hansen - 8:32.23c (2024)
Jeff Nelson - 8:33.31c (1979)
Colin Salhman - 8:33.31 (2022)
Daniel Simmons - 8:34.13 (2023) - arcadia 2023
Nathan Neil - 8:35.32 (2024)
Lex Young - 8:35.71 (2022)
Gerry Lindgren - 8:36.98c (1964)
Craig Virgin - 8:37.88c (1955)
Ryan Pajak - 8:38.02 (2024)
Ben Jaster - 8:38.34 (2024)
Steve Prefontaine - 8:38.48c (1969)
Ethan Edgeworth - 8:38.49 (2024)
Andrew Hunter - 8:39.48c (2015)
Riley Smith - 8:39.71 (2024)
Josiah Tostenson - 8:39.89 (2024)
Nico Young - 8:40.0 (2019)
Jojo Jourdon - 8:40.46 (2024)
Emmanuel Perez - 8:40.47 (2024)
Grant Fisher - 8:40.53c (2015)
Cole Sprout - 8:40.73 (2019)
Joe Rosa - 8:41.02c (2010)
Owen Powell - 8:41.03 - (2024)
Porter Middaugh - 8:41.05 (2024)
Dathan Ritzenhein - 8:41.10 (2000)
Will Conway - 8:41.18 (2024)
Clay Shively - 8:41.29 (2024)
Dane Eike - 8:41.40 (2024)
Patrick Koon - 8:41.46 (2024)
Cooper Teare - 8:41.46 (2017)note: Lukas Verzbicas’s 8:26.51c comes from a professional race. He was the only high schooler on the all-time list that had this opportunity.
In summary:Drew Griffith currently has the #5 fastest 3200/2mile ever for a high schooler
Daniel Simmons is at #10
Nathan Neil is at #11
Ryan Pajak #15
Ben Jaster #16
Ethan Edgeworth #18
Josiah Tostenson #21
Jojo Jourdon #23
Emmanuel Perez #24
Owen Powell #28
Porter Middaugh #29
Will Conway #31
Dane Eike #33
Patrick Koon #34Nice list but you are missing many runners with superb 2 miles you did not convert to 3200m:
-Hobbs Kessler (8:39.04)
-Tyrone Gorze (8:39.61)
-Matthew Centrowitz (8:41.55)
-Nathan Mountain (8:42.16)
-Hunter Jones (8:43.71)
-Parker Wolfe (8:43.91)
-Eric Reynolds (8:44.00)
-Alan Scharsu (8:44.03)
-Clay Shively (8:44.29)
Anyone know what Jim Ryun ran in the 3200 in HS?
20
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