Intensity- how low is too low for aerobic development?

SDHJ wrote:

Kvothe wrote:

I would think you'd be better training at around 830 pace most days based on your recent 5k times.

I disagree. Training 30 seconds per mile slower than you suggest crushed me over time. It is 2 minutes faster than what is proven to be my LT1 as well, a massive margin in this context.

My theory on why I have to train so slow is due to extreme aerobic deficiency. I was able to run 19:35 last month likely because I borrowed a lot from my anaerobic system. I was absolutely redlining the entire time and it was really a death march 3k in.

I have a feeling we get very hung up on race equivalency calculators. They can be a very helpful tool, however they do not consider someone who is aerobically deficient. The calculators assume you are aerobically fit. How do I know this? Well VDOT says my threshold pace should be 6:44. Tinman says 6:46-6:55. My LT2 was tested at 8:02. These are very different paces, especially for someone who has been running for 2 years only.

I am learning there is a lot of nuance with the topic of easy running. You have to consider more factors than just race times.

SDHJ wrote:

Hard2Find wrote:

I saw your post in the Norwegian thread regarding your lactate test. Would it be too much to ask for a basic breakdown of your training? Specifically, how many miles (or hours) per week you run and what type of workouts, if any, you were/are doing?

Your post made me think of the Hadd thread and how a lot of runners 1) don't run enough volume and/or 2) run their volume too fast and therefore don't properly train their spectrum of fibers (or metabolism, if you wish). It sounds like you had a feeling that was happening and caught it, which is great! Hopefully that revelation leads to improved training and performance in the years to come for you!

Absolutely. It's tough to give an overall breakdown because I was so inconsistent but see below for some example weeks of the type of stuff I used to do a while back (daniels) and the stuff I was doing lately leading up to the 19:35 turkey trot. I'll include the TSS scores assigned to them as well to show the impact on the body.

1/2/2023-1/8/2023: 47.9 miles, 7:19 duration, Daniels 5k training, total TSS of 991

M: 5 mile (3.5 miles easy + 10 strides), avg pace 10:20, 20 sec strides at 6:00) - TSS of 87

T: 2 mile warmup/drills, 2 x 8x200 @ 44, 200 rest, 800 between sets, 2 mile cooldown - 8.56 miles, avg pace 8:48 - TSS of 181

W: 7.71 miles, 9:07 avg pace - TSS of 153

Th: off

F: 2 mi warmup, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 x 1 mi threshold (6:50), 1 min rest, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 mi cooldown, 8.28 miles, 8:37 avg pace - TSS of 178

Sa: 8.35 miles, 8:39 avg pace - TSS of 176

Su: 10.03 miles, 8:42 avg pace - TSS of 215

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11/13/2023-11/19/2023 - 44.2 miles, 7:14 total duration - total TSS of 946

M: 3x3200 tempo (15:11, 15:02, 15:09), 4:15 walk between. 15 min warmup/cooldown. 9.31 miles, 8:59 avg pace - TSS of 194

T: off

W: 40 min easy + 6 strides (9:53 avg pace, 5:20 avg pace for strides), 4.88 miles - TSS of 100

Th: 15 min warmup/cooldown (9:39 avg pace), 4 x mile threshold (6:46, 6:49, 6:59, 6:41). 8 miles, avg pace 8:22 - TSS of 167

F: 7.65 miles easy (group run), 8:45 avg pace - TSS of 191

Sa: 90 minute long run, 9.97 miles, 9:02 avg pace - TSS of 214

Su: 40 min easy run + 6 strides (9:57 avg pace, 5:37 avg pace for strides), 4.45 miles - TSS of 80

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Not a fair comparison as the volume/duration is way lower, but my last 3 weeks have been (17.6 mi/3 hours 32 min/268 total tss), (18.4 mi/3 hours 47 min/277 TSS), (21 mi/4 hours 2 min/325 TSS). The big jump in TSS the third week was due to the lactate threshold test on that Wednesday. Most easy runs are giving me TSS of 39-50.

SDHJ wrote:

Absolutely. It's tough to give an overall breakdown because I was so inconsistent but see below for some example weeks of the type of stuff I used to do a while back (daniels) and the stuff I was doing lately leading up to the 19:35 turkey trot. I'll include the TSS scores assigned to them as well to show the impact on the body.

1/2/2023-1/8/2023: 47.9 miles, 7:19 duration, Daniels 5k training, total TSS of 991

M: 5 mile (3.5 miles easy + 10 strides), avg pace 10:20, 20 sec strides at 6:00) - TSS of 87

T: 2 mile warmup/drills, 2 x 8x200 @ 44, 200 rest, 800 between sets, 2 mile cooldown - 8.56 miles, avg pace 8:48 - TSS of 181

W: 7.71 miles, 9:07 avg pace - TSS of 153

Th: off

F: 2 mi warmup, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 x 1 mi threshold (6:50), 1 min rest, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 mi cooldown, 8.28 miles, 8:37 avg pace - TSS of 178

Sa: 8.35 miles, 8:39 avg pace - TSS of 176

Su: 10.03 miles, 8:42 avg pace - TSS of 215

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11/13/2023-11/19/2023 - 44.2 miles, 7:14 total duration - total TSS of 946

M: 3x3200 tempo (15:11, 15:02, 15:09), 4:15 walk between. 15 min warmup/cooldown. 9.31 miles, 8:59 avg pace - TSS of 194

T: off

W: 40 min easy + 6 strides (9:53 avg pace, 5:20 avg pace for strides), 4.88 miles - TSS of 100

Th: 15 min warmup/cooldown (9:39 avg pace), 4 x mile threshold (6:46, 6:49, 6:59, 6:41). 8 miles, avg pace 8:22 - TSS of 167

F: 7.65 miles easy (group run), 8:45 avg pace - TSS of 191

Sa: 90 minute long run, 9.97 miles, 9:02 avg pace - TSS of 214

Su: 40 min easy run + 6 strides (9:57 avg pace, 5:37 avg pace for strides), 4.45 miles - TSS of 80

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Not a fair comparison as the volume/duration is way lower, but my last 3 weeks have been (17.6 mi/3 hours 32 min/268 total tss), (18.4 mi/3 hours 47 min/277 TSS), (21 mi/4 hours 2 min/325 TSS). The big jump in TSS the third week was due to the lactate threshold test on that Wednesday. Most easy runs are giving me TSS of 39-50.

n9 wrote:

LT1 itself might be a bit difficult to define and measure. But for most runners there should be a point of minimum lactate which is right below LT1 and could be a good 'LT1' training pace.

From my own experience, lactate at rest and when jogging is 1.2 - 1.5, and as I pick up the pace it goes down to 0.8 - 1.0 at about 7 minute miles (for reference, I'm a 40 yo 2:40 marathoner, so MP + 1 minute per mile) before starting to increase. Of course it's still eyeballing the curve but: it's very easy to lock into this zone by feel. It's where running is fun, it feels somewhat fast but zero effort, you just fly through the woods enjoying the scenery.

Unfortunately at least for me this pace is not sustainable on easy runs. I fail workouts too often if I don't do easy days slower. I feel beat at work. A 20-miler at this pace serving as a long run for a 8-10 hours training week is quite brutal. Worst of all, it stops feeling easy and fun after rather a short while. So right now I'm experimenting with 'norvegian singles' (sounds like a porn search string for me tbh) – trying spend 25-30% of training time between LT1 and LT2. This is basically running a lot of cruise intervals and tempos close to marathon pace with some sprinkling of strides and 200s. And boy 2.5 hours of MP running per week is a lot, it's basically not doable unless you have 3 workouts per week or use double workout days.

Hard2Find wrote:

n9 wrote:

LT1 itself might be a bit difficult to define and measure. But for most runners there should be a point of minimum lactate which is right below LT1 and could be a good 'LT1' training pace.

From my own experience, lactate at rest and when jogging is 1.2 - 1.5, and as I pick up the pace it goes down to 0.8 - 1.0 at about 7 minute miles (for reference, I'm a 40 yo 2:40 marathoner, so MP + 1 minute per mile) before starting to increase. Of course it's still eyeballing the curve but: it's very easy to lock into this zone by feel. It's where running is fun, it feels somewhat fast but zero effort, you just fly through the woods enjoying the scenery.

Unfortunately at least for me this pace is not sustainable on easy runs. I fail workouts too often if I don't do easy days slower. I feel beat at work. A 20-miler at this pace serving as a long run for a 8-10 hours training week is quite brutal. Worst of all, it stops feeling easy and fun after rather a short while. So right now I'm experimenting with 'norvegian singles' (sounds like a porn search string for me tbh) – trying spend 25-30% of training time between LT1 and LT2. This is basically running a lot of cruise intervals and tempos close to marathon pace with some sprinkling of strides and 200s. And boy 2.5 hours of MP running per week is a lot, it's basically not doable unless you have 3 workouts per week or use double workout days.

While acknowledging the variation that occurs on an individual level, so as not to suggest I think there is only one way to approach training, your description of both lactate testing and training, mirrors my own very closely! There is no way I’m running near my LT1 pace on the daily while also doing 2-3 workouts (I count my long run as a workout) per week. I’m also a 8-10 hours per week runner, which I think plays a role in how one perceives things. Sure if I’m only running 4-6 hours per week I’m going to be a lot fresher, but I’m also not nearly as fit on that.

Even when I’ve tried the “Runners World Approach” of running very little on my easy days and focusing on the hard days. The logic, which I concede is sound reasoning, of doing more on your workout days while doing a minimal amount on your easy days so that you’re more recovered for your workout days, just doesn’t translate physiologically, for me.

In fact, the times when I have been able to handle more volume in workouts, as well as density of workouts, was when I was running 10-12 hours per week. Despite my times improving minimally on that higher volume, my general aerobic fitness, ability to recover between sessions, and ability to handle more volume per session, was improved. That generally involved 1.5-2.5 hours per week of work in the LT1-LT2 range and the remaining 8.5-9.5 hours significantly slower than LT1.

doesn't compute wrote:

SDHJ wrote:

I disagree. Training 30 seconds per mile slower than you suggest crushed me over time. It is 2 minutes faster than what is proven to be my LT1 as well, a massive margin in this context.

My theory on why I have to train so slow is due to extreme aerobic deficiency. I was able to run 19:35 last month likely because I borrowed a lot from my anaerobic system. I was absolutely redlining the entire time and it was really a death march 3k in.

I have a feeling we get very hung up on race equivalency calculators. They can be a very helpful tool, however they do not consider someone who is aerobically deficient. The calculators assume you are aerobically fit. How do I know this? Well VDOT says my threshold pace should be 6:44. Tinman says 6:46-6:55. My LT2 was tested at 8:02. These are very different paces, especially for someone who has been running for 2 years only.

I am learning there is a lot of nuance with the topic of easy running. You have to consider more factors than just race times.

So you genuinely think that you can't run for one hour at a faster pace than 8:02?

Because that's what LT2 more or less correlates to.

I think your numbers are way, way off.

Hard2Find wrote:

SDHJ wrote:

Absolutely. It's tough to give an overall breakdown because I was so inconsistent but see below for some example weeks of the type of stuff I used to do a while back (daniels) and the stuff I was doing lately leading up to the 19:35 turkey trot. I'll include the TSS scores assigned to them as well to show the impact on the body.

1/2/2023-1/8/2023: 47.9 miles, 7:19 duration, Daniels 5k training, total TSS of 991

M: 5 mile (3.5 miles easy + 10 strides), avg pace 10:20, 20 sec strides at 6:00) - TSS of 87

T: 2 mile warmup/drills, 2 x 8x200 @ 44, 200 rest, 800 between sets, 2 mile cooldown - 8.56 miles, avg pace 8:48 - TSS of 181

W: 7.71 miles, 9:07 avg pace - TSS of 153

Th: off

F: 2 mi warmup, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 x 1 mi threshold (6:50), 1 min rest, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 mi cooldown, 8.28 miles, 8:37 avg pace - TSS of 178

Sa: 8.35 miles, 8:39 avg pace - TSS of 176

Su: 10.03 miles, 8:42 avg pace - TSS of 215

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11/13/2023-11/19/2023 - 44.2 miles, 7:14 total duration - total TSS of 946

M: 3x3200 tempo (15:11, 15:02, 15:09), 4:15 walk between. 15 min warmup/cooldown. 9.31 miles, 8:59 avg pace - TSS of 194

T: off

W: 40 min easy + 6 strides (9:53 avg pace, 5:20 avg pace for strides), 4.88 miles - TSS of 100

Th: 15 min warmup/cooldown (9:39 avg pace), 4 x mile threshold (6:46, 6:49, 6:59, 6:41). 8 miles, avg pace 8:22 - TSS of 167

F: 7.65 miles easy (group run), 8:45 avg pace - TSS of 191

Sa: 90 minute long run, 9.97 miles, 9:02 avg pace - TSS of 214

Su: 40 min easy run + 6 strides (9:57 avg pace, 5:37 avg pace for strides), 4.45 miles - TSS of 80

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a fair comparison as the volume/duration is way lower, but my last 3 weeks have been (17.6 mi/3 hours 32 min/268 total tss), (18.4 mi/3 hours 47 min/277 TSS), (21 mi/4 hours 2 min/325 TSS). The big jump in TSS the third week was due to the lactate threshold test on that Wednesday. Most easy runs are giving me TSS of 39-50.

Thanks for sharing! I assume you're using Training Peaks for the TSS values? You may want to check that everything is being uploaded properly as the values do look very high. Not that TSS is your focus, but if you paid for the subscription and are going to use TSS and CTL to monitor the stimulus, you at least want to know it's giving you the right feedback. Best of luck with your new training!