Why do you think USADA punished her so lightly if they believed she was deliberately cheating?
Honestly, why do you frame it as light? You're making an editorial choice, and I don't know if it's correct or not, so I'm asking for clarification.
Why did Alyssa Wilson not have a suspension for the same substance without a TUE? It seems like there were other punishments that aren't as harsh.
Admittedly, I am quite ignorant about drugs. My running and coaching careers ended years ago. Anyone who knows me, both runners and athletes I coached, knows how much I HATE cheating. Whether drugs, course cutting, whatever. I do not follow Allie O. but I am interested in how she does because, from the start, I was awed by how diminutive a kid could run so tough, especially in grueling mountain races in Alaska. And then coming down to the Lower 48 and taking on the big names here - and almost always beating them with gutty races.
In any case, here is a link for USADA's list of all 932 athletes whom they have punished. Only 9, including Allie, were cited for canrenone. Almost all of them many years ago. Most of them just were given public warnings. To me those numbers suggest it is very rarely, if ever, used as a masking agent. So if she chose it to cheat she apparently made a poor choice. And for whatever reason USADA does not regard is as deserving a harsh penalty since, as I said, most were only given Public Warnings.
A list of all anti-doping rule violations / sanctions issued by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) in its history. Includes athlete & coach sanctions.
You agree, yet you think your view somehow has more weight than those in support of her and talk down to us as if you’re intellectually superior.
Serious question - Are you high right now?
Take a look at Chaterjee GPT's post 3 up from this one. I have no problems with it whatsoever. It's a true assessment of the known facts.
When someone fails a test, it means that they broke a rule and are dirty to at least some degree. It opens the door to reasonable suspicion that there likely could be more cheating than what is known. Consider all the people that are deemed to be dirty on the daily without ever failing a test.
However, I mention that and instead of any rational response with any decent arguments, I am called names and given endless posts with ludicrous reasons for her innocence. And, you think I am should just get on my knees and swallow your sh*t? And, now, you say that I am talking down to you? You must be high.
You agree, yet you think your view somehow has more weight than those in support of her and talk down to us as if you’re intellectually superior.
Serious question - Are you high right now?
Take a look at Chaterjee GPT's post 3 up from this one. I have no problems with it whatsoever. It's a true assessment of the known facts.
When someone fails a test, it means that they broke a rule and are dirty to at least some degree. It opens the door to reasonable suspicion that there likely could be more cheating than what is known. Consider all the people that are deemed to be dirty on the daily without ever failing a test.
However, I mention that and instead of any rational response with any decent arguments, I am called names and given endless posts with ludicrous reasons for her innocence. And, you think I am should just get on my knees and swallow your sh*t? And, now, you say that I am talking down to you? You must be high.
Lol you aren’t talking your way out of this one bud, there are multiple pages of evidence that prove you just came into this thread to be an a$$.
I do not follow. You say that most with the same offense got off with public warning, but then you say that Allie's 4mo sanction is light?
This issue aside (and obvi cheating is a bigger one for me than it is for you), I have really liked Allie for same reasons you listed. I remember being very impressed with how she ran at the Nike National meet 9 years ago. I am sad to see where life has taken her now.
I am not trying to talk my way out of anything. Go ahead and re-read the thread. You might learn something, but probably not.
Yeah, what I’ve learned is that you have tunnel vision and don’t see the flaw in your own thinking.
You are going around calling everyone stupid who doesn’t agree with your view yet there is no evidence that your view is correct either.
Your argument is a therefore statement. She got caught for doping, therefore she is a cheater. I’ve already pointed out what makes someone a cheater by definition and believe she is a doper, but not a cheater. As I don’t believe she had dishonest, advantageous intent.
I do not follow. You say that most with the same offense got off with public warning, but then you say that Allie's 4mo sanction is light?
This issue aside (and obvi cheating is a bigger one for me than it is for you), I have really liked Allie for same reasons you listed. I remember being very impressed with how she ran at the Nike National meet 9 years ago. I am sad to see where life has taken her now.
I said she got off lightly because all of the stories one sees are of athletes getting long bans. When I went to USADA's list - in response to your legitimate question as to their typical punishments - I saw I was wrong. And I acknowledged it in my previous postponing. And provided USADA's link so you, or anyone, could see for yourself.
Our exchange has been polite, so I am disappointed - and, frankly, resent - your saying that cheating is obviously a bigger issue to you than it is to me. The guys I used to run with - and the kids I coached - and the kids in my U.S. History classes - all knew how passionate I was about cheating. More than 50 years ago I was a Boy Scout. The ideals have stayed with me.
Disappointed this thread is multiple pages of rehashing old news that was already discussed elsewhere; anywho...
BIG PICTURE: It's sometimes hard to see her excelling to the near top of any distance or surface as long as she is in that comfortable bubble of Ari/Spencer in WA. I'm curious how much time she will spend at training camps with NNormal in the future and how she handles additional stressors (travel, relocation?, altitude, performance expectations, longer distances/volume etc.). Hard to imagine anyone being at the top without the support of physios, nutritionists, and proper coaching at this point. There's a certain 'hunger' in the interviews of those at the top of their event - do you hear it in hers? Can you picture it?
admittedly I know very little about the trail running world but I thought (and someone pointed out on the original thread of the news breaking) that most trail races have a strict policy about people competing who have served bans (even if they are completed now). "The policy says that any athlete who has been banned from competition by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), or any national sports federation is prohibited from competing at any ECS event while serving a suspension.
After an athlete’s ban has been lifted, he or she may race at any ECS event. However, that athlete will not be eligible for prize money, awards, podium recognition, or competitive rankings at any distance."
That is an excellent policy from ECS. Allie Ostrander should no longer be recognized in any way that is related to running. I do wish her the best in whatever else she does. Like many cheats, she'll likely continue to seek attention and will be a negative to running.
It will be interesting to see if ECS sticks by their policy. It looks like they may have already folded due to unthinking peer pressure.
Disappointed this thread is multiple pages of rehashing old news that was already discussed elsewhere; anywho...
BIG PICTURE: It's sometimes hard to see her excelling to the near top of any distance or surface as long as she is in that comfortable bubble of Ari/Spencer in WA. I'm curious how much time she will spend at training camps with NNormal in the future and how she handles additional stressors (travel, relocation?, altitude, performance expectations, longer distances/volume etc.). Hard to imagine anyone being at the top without the support of physios, nutritionists, and proper coaching at this point. There's a certain 'hunger' in the interviews of those at the top of their event - do you hear it in hers? Can you picture it?
No, her cheating aside, I don't think any sort of comeback is likely for Allie. She will obviously be able to put up pretty good performances on trails for awhile, though.
Apologies if I've offended you, though I do take cheating (especially proven cheating) seriously. That is great if you do as well, but I am having a hard time reconciling what makes you reluctant in this open-and-shut case.
I am beginning to suspect that the Allie supporters are trolling. There is no way that all of the greatest morons of LR can be on this same thread, but here we are.
Here are the irrefutable arguments that have been put forth to exonerate Ostrander:
1) The banned substance has other legit purposes, so it shouldn't even be on the banned list. Therefore, she not dirty!
2) She has a fantastic running resume (lol). Therefore, she not dirty!
3) She isn't even looking to go back to the track and trail running is just for fun. In our expert opinion (and we know her thoughts and feelings), she has no incentive to cheat. Therefore, she not dirty!
4) Her initial suspension was light, so according to us, the people at USADA must have thought that it wasn't actually doping afterall. Therefore, she not dirty!
5) She didn't get popped for whatever she may have been masking. Therefore, she not dirty!
6) Other possible dopers (like Assefe!!!) aren't getting busted. Therefore, she not dirty!
7) Everyone knows Allie! She's super cute and like-able. She even gives us a real look at the elite running life on Youtube! She's genuine. Therefore, she not dirty!
8) She likely could've gotten a TUE for this, if she were willing to go through that process and accept the additional scrutiny involved. Therefore, she not dirty!
Are there any more contextual considerations I am missing? Seriously, please bring an actual argument that someone older than 8 years old would bring. You homers are just embarrassing yourselves and Allie even further.
I like Allie and I wish her well in whatever she choses to do next. Like anyone else, she is not beyond forgiveness. Forgiveness does not (and should not) require the turning off of one's brain when someone cheats, and there should be full ownership of the wrong done as well as restitution. I can envision a useful purpose in the sport for her if she, as a reformed doper, were to use her platform to warn or encourage others to not cheat. Otherwise, she is a negative influence for everyone and the sport as long as she choses to remain visible in any way.
You don’t wish Allie well, stopping trying to backtrack. Your chosen anonymous username says it all. No Allie supporter can refute she took a banned substance and served a suspension. You are trying to place her in the same category as Shelby or Salazar. Playing with fire to gain an advantage. Allie took some acne medication and didn’t think to get it approved because she isn’t out there trying to compete in the diamond league or anything to that level. Her light ban proves USADA felt the same way. Your black and white view of cheating is my point about context. Cheaters are looking for an advantage, nothing about the situation screams that Allie was looking for an advantage, she made a careless mistake. Has Allie served a doping ban? Yes. Is she a cheat? No.
You don’t wish Allie well, stopping trying to backtrack. Your chosen anonymous username says it all. No Allie supporter can refute she took a banned substance and served a suspension. You are trying to place her in the same category as Shelby or Salazar. Playing with fire to gain an advantage. Allie took some acne medication and didn’t think to get it approved because she isn’t out there trying to compete in the diamond league or anything to that level. Her light ban proves USADA felt the same way. Your black and white view of cheating is my point about context. Cheaters are looking for an advantage, nothing about the situation screams that Allie was looking for an advantage, she made a careless mistake. Has Allie served a doping ban? Yes. Is she a cheat? No.
Yea I agree.
From what i recall this was not a doping thread.
So, I too wonder with her age and talent (and yes many obstacles- no pun intended), is it crazy that she could go all vision quest/comeback of the year and try for SC team in the next 2-3 yrs? I have the utmost respect for trail runners, but the DL and worlds/olympics are still 10K bigger. Even if the money isnt.
Yeah, what I’ve learned is that you have tunnel vision and don’t see the flaw in your own thinking.
You are going around calling everyone stupid who doesn’t agree with your view yet there is no evidence that your view is correct either.
Your argument is a therefore statement. She got caught for doping, therefore she is a cheater. I’ve already pointed out what makes someone a cheater by definition and believe she is a doper, but not a cheater. As I don’t believe she had dishonest, advantageous intent.
both are opinion.
I am willing to reset with you in our discussion, Look it up. It is easy to avoid name calling or to engage in it. When others do it, I'll frequently give it back as it seems to sadly be the language others understand.
Can we both agree that cheating is bad? If so, then all we need to do is establish the lines when we can be confident when someone has cheated. For me, I understand completely when people assume (rightly or wrongly) when someone has bad associations, performs beyond what is thought to be possible, has been accused by someone in their circle, etc. In those instances, I may personally have suspicions, but I refrain on speaking out about these because I would hate to condemn an innocent person. Even though I would concede that it makes sense that the cheaters will always be steps ahead of the testers, are the drug tests. When a top athlete fails a drug test, and especially when they admit that they took the substance (which is what we have with Allie), then they are undeniably a cheater.
A person may have their reasons, excuses, and not seem like a cheater. None of these hold any water. The path of assigning guilt whether or not we like someone is and believe them and their supposed intentions or whether or not the cheating appeared to appreciably affect their performances, imo, incredibly obtuse. It is devoid of evidence and credibility. If this is the way of our society, then we are screwed, imo. Not only will all cheaters who are willing to lie get a free pass, but we will be very poor indeed on correctly assessing who is and is not cheating. In short, suspicions about for gray areas, but reaching a verdict requires the crossing of black and white lines, which is what we have here.
I am open to hearing how my thinking on this overly narrow and flawed. Perhaps you think that I am overly harsh? Though the failed test has crossed my objective cheating line, I would agree that testing and admitting to epo, for example, would be even worse. Does that help?
I do not follow. You say that most with the same offense got off with public warning, but then you say that Allie's 4mo sanction is light?
This issue aside (and obvi cheating is a bigger one for me than it is for you), I have really liked Allie for same reasons you listed. I remember being very impressed with how she ran at the Nike National meet 9 years ago. I am sad to see where life has taken her now.
Some people shouldn't open their mouth. Do you also think underwear goes on after pants?
That's funny because that is the most effective diss by anyone on this thread! Astro is an utter dumbazs who loudly accuses any and everyone based on how he feels (which is that everyone is guilty, especially females who he feels somehow threatens his favorite). You will only see me going after the proven cheaters.
Also, astro is a godawful communicator. Ugh, you got me good. That one stung.
Good for Allie, I guess, to have attracted you and so many fervent followers and believers. The youtubing influencer is a thing. You must have her vids playing on a loop. Too bad more attention isn't given to honest, hard-working, and high-achieving runners who would be positive influences to the world. Scammers will find their suckers, and Allie has done excellent in this regard.
