What's the next great high altitude town for year around living/training?

You seem really sure about that, even though it should be clear that it's not true at all. Anywho, I suppose Frank Shorter wasn't "truly elite" before he got to Boulder? Hey, maybe you're right about who this applies to, people who are tired of the same old places that are run-out, overrun with pretenders, and overpriced now. Grant Fisher signed up to be told what to do, so probably not a good example to grab for. Ultimately, COVID-driven remote work has driven an entire, affluent workforce to seek out and price-up these places. Most, if not all, have been playgrounds for the wealthy for a long, long time prior to that.

I live in Boulder and feel like it’s not safe to run early in the morning especially on the bike paths and near the dispensaries. Also there is a murder and/or rape reported every week. I would never use a public restroom or run on a secluded stretch of bike path.

Gold Camp Rd bruh. Rampart Range Rd bruh. Literally any rolling dirt road on the northeast side of town or outside of Woodland Park.

I've spent many a Sunday on Mags, and I think its probably responsible for more injuries than any other road in the US running world.

AlohaState wrote:

I live in Boulder and feel like it’s not safe to run early in the morning especially on the bike paths and near the dispensaries. Also there is a murder and/or rape reported every week. I would never use a public restroom or run on a secluded stretch of bike path.

Big part of the reason we moved out of Boulder. Property crimes had been rising significantly, too. Based on the evidence we were seeing, it was only a matter of time before I had a car window broken if it was in a parking lot and I never leave anything valuable in there. Has Scott Carpenter or Buff Ranch become a homeless encampment yet?

Old Balls wrote:

Gold Camp Rd bruh. Rampart Range Rd bruh. Literally any rolling dirt road on the northeast side of town or outside of Woodland Park.

I've spent many a Sunday on Mags, and I think its probably responsible for more injuries than any other road in the US running world.

(To be clear, this is me agreeing with you that Mags is overrated. I have seen clowns post "recovery runs" on Mags.)

Just finished reading Frank Shorter's bio, and the only reason he gave for living in Boulder was: it had the nation's only indoor track above 5000' at the time.

He seems to have originally visited Boulder when training in Vail - he would come down to Boulder to do track workouts. Boulder was the "low" side of the "train low, sleep high" equation. Leading up to his '72 marathon win, he barely had touched Boulder, actually spent a lot of time in Gainesville, FL (no idea how you can be motivated to train through that humidity).

Like, no debating that Boulder is now a running mecca. It's just interesting how somewhat arbitrary choices by influential people can really shape the future. Makes it clear that there are a lot of potential running towns ripe for the picking - they just don't have the reputation yet.

Evan Jogger wrote:

Has Scott Carpenter or Buff Ranch become a homeless encampment yet?

Nope, they are still sweeping homeless encampments regularly. CU South (buff ranch) is going to be redeveloped soon, much to the chagrin of the dog walkers.

fwiw, I run at all hours of the day all over Boulder and I take big dumps in all the public restrooms, nothing to fear if you ask me. I'm not brave, I just don't get scared of things in my imagination.

Shorter's Bio wrote:

Evan Jogger wrote:

Has Scott Carpenter or Buff Ranch become a homeless encampment yet?

Nope, they are still sweeping homeless encampments regularly. CU South (buff ranch) is going to be redeveloped soon, much to the chagrin of the dog walkers.

fwiw, I run at all hours of the day all over Boulder and I take big dumps in all the public restrooms, nothing to fear if you ask me. I'm not brave, I just don't get scared of things in my imagination.

Same, though I have a wife who, due to work schedule, was having to train pre-dawn in the dark and was routinely getting accosted by street people or people experiencing homelessness. She ran along major, well-lit roads and still this was happening. As a woman, she kinda has to imagine the worst to stay safe especially given clear evidence there was a high percentage of people out at those hours unwilling to just leave her alone. She wound up taking up swimming just to go do something indoors while gyms were otherwise closed.

What happens if you don't drive to ... wrote:

What happens if you don't drive to low elevation to do your workouts? What happens if you do your workouts above 5000ft. elevation?

Nothing happens but it is shown by experience (and studies?) that you get benefit from the ability to do workouts at your ordinary pace (by going to low elevation) as opposed to do everything at high elevation (and thus lower pace for the whole period).

Shorter's Bio wrote:

Evan Jogger wrote:

Has Scott Carpenter or Buff Ranch become a homeless encampment yet?

Nope, they are still sweeping homeless encampments regularly. CU South (buff ranch) is going to be redeveloped soon, much to the chagrin of the dog walkers.

fwiw, I run at all hours of the day all over Boulder and I take big dumps in all the public restrooms, nothing to fear if you ask me. I'm not brave, I just don't get scared of things in my imagination.

There are benefits to being unattractive...

LarsL9 wrote:

What happens if you don't drive to ... wrote:

What happens if you don't drive to low elevation to do your workouts? What happens if you do your workouts above 5000ft. elevation?

Nothing happens but it is shown by experience (and studies?) that you get benefit from the ability to do workouts at your ordinary pace (by going to low elevation) as opposed to do everything at high elevation (and thus lower pace for the whole period).

It's exactly why Wetmore has admitted to the reason why his teams simply can't and don't go out at the front in the first mile in dry, calm, fast conditions at NCAAs, they don't have the legspeed since altitude necessarily slows their pace in workouts at altitude for the same effort level.

Apologies for digressing in my post above, didn't mean to be a downer! I'm sure for single guys or anyone able to workout in daylight all the time, Boulder is still a dream.

Per the OP, I'll plug the same location that Mike Rohl used to tout, Cloudcroft, NM. Sits around 8600' which is purportedly a much better altitude for sleeping in "sleep high, train low." There's miles and miles of paved and unpaved forest roads up there, I ran the Governor Gary Johnson 10K long ago that was largely on soft surface. It's around 90 minutes drive down to El Paso for an airport or expanded shopping opportunities. It's maybe 30 minutes down to Alamogordo at 4300' and all-weather high school tracks and flat valley roads plus near dune running at White Sands. The main employers around there are probably Holloman AFB and White Sands Missile Range. A young runner could perhaps live in a cabin in Cloudcroft and work as a teacher in Alamogordo. I'm also partial to Silver City, Santa Fe, and Los Alamos. Raton and Las Vegas are definitely dumps.

let's be hones, come on wrote:

Oh, ok. So the criteria is:

1. Altitude

2. Great weather

3. Inexpensive

4. Proximate to great jobs and thriving economy

5. Quick access to lower elevations

6. Great restaurants and night life and cultural activities

why not just add free luxury housing, personal butler, free luxury automobile

Brilliant post. We are going to add a thumbs up soon so we can be sure to catch posts like this. You made me laugh.

rojo wrote:

We are going to add a thumbs up soon so we can be sure to catch posts like this.

I love that the features users scream about for years have been shoved lower in the glacially-moving queue to make room for stuff no one asked for. Let's hope we can grind and push this one out by Q4 2022, if all goes well.

Under promise, over deliver!!! wrote:

rojo wrote:

We are going to add a thumbs up soon so we can be sure to catch posts like this.

I love that the features users scream about for years have been shoved lower in the glacially-moving queue to make room for stuff no one asked for. Let's hope we can grind and push this one out by Q4 2022, if all goes well.

That's not going to happen - ever!

Los Alamos NM. It is at @ 7,000 ft. Great trails in town with a zillion more in Bandalier and Valles Caldera. Weather is on par with Boulder and Flagstaff. Cost of living is significantly less. You can rent a very nice one bedroom apartment for $1,000-$1,500. 2,000 sq ft homes rent out at around $3k. Pile in with a bunch of roommates and save some cash. Good restaurants, bars, etc. Short drive to Santa Fe, NM for festivals, cultural events, etc. Lots to do in summer and winter. Whitewater rafting, kayaking, rock climbing, etc. in summer. Taos, Angel Fire, Parajito, Ski Santa Fe in the winter.

Since you can actually sprint faster at high altitude than at low altitude, which is why we frown at world record attempts in the sprints and jumps at high altitudes, the argument that you're missing out on speed development at high altitude is clearly false. Everything from 100m to 400m and the jumps are faster or longer at altitude. At 800m, there might still be a small advantage to altitude but it's more or less a push, and that was the longest distance in Mexico City won by a non-altitude raised athlete. So, what is it that you are actually missing out on? Repetitions on short rest are going to be harder and probably slower, even if they are short reps. Where it is decidedly more difficult is to do long reps and tempos. I think I did about 26 seconds faster per mile at sea level for half marathon in a race than in a flat 11M tempo at 5000 feet ten days out, and I probably had more in the tank that day in the half but didn't believe I could go that much faster than my tempo. Mile repeats at 5200 ft were slow. 8x800 repeats on 45-60s rest, though, were faster than I managed in a sea level 5000m race on the track, though there too I had more in the tank. I struggled with the field's pace in a sea level 1500m after training at altitude, true, but my training actually did not include faster than 1500m running, unfortunately. So, I think that you can very much design training at altitude for short as well as medium and long distance running, and that's very much evidenced by the championship success of Ethiopian runners, who train both at much higher altitude than Kenyans and with a lot more sprint work.

Sante Fe comes to mind but perhaps a little cold in the winter but otherwise meets other criteria. Albuquerque is right at 5,100 feet, has loads of open space and trails and easy access to lower elevation and pretty mild weather and very affordable housing.

It is a city of over a half million so there's a lot of restaurants and entertainment options and has a big enough airport to get by but not a lot of nonstops.

Reno is at 4,500 feet is only 20 minutes from Tahoe and much higher elevation, has gotten more expensive lately but still affordable compared to most running meccas, especially so if you live in the burbs, lots of entertainment and decent restaurants. There are trails within city limits and the options for trails are pretty much limitless within an hour drive in any direction.

Bishop CA elevation 4,000 but one can drive to over 8,000 in 20 minutes is also getting more expensive but you can still rent a 1 bedroom for $1000 or buy a place for under $400,000.

El Paso varies in elevation and while the airport is at 4,000 feet North Franklin Mountain at over 7,000 feet is within city limits and has an extensive trail network. Housing is super inexpensive, average high temp in Jan / Feb is in low 60s, great tex mex and Mexican food scene. It is not for everyone but it has a lot going for it in terms of cost and access especially since UTEP has a great track tradition and there's lots of options for finding a track to train on.

I live at 7500 feet in the county next to the most-oft mentioned town in this thread. It doesn't have the scene with runners nor mystique of coolness. But housing is a lot cheaper if you shop around and overall cost of living is less. Can get to 5500 feet or less in 10 minutes any day any time, and 5100 feet in 25 minutes if traffic isn't too bad. There are open space areas and technical or non-technical trails are all over the place with trail access/parking every couple of miles. A downside is that it's hard to find something like a 10-15 mile off-road loop or trail for longer runs.

That said, Woodland Park, C. Springs would also be really good for running.

Crested Butte--Gunnison--Montrose would also be a good combo for a training group. Stay in the Butte for a 6 week altitude stint a couple times a year, Gunnison has an indoor track and a good variety of flat roads and all sorts of trails. For the winter Montrose, just an hour away is at 5500 and is in a banana belt.