New coach Bernard Lagat goes home DEVASTATED as Arizona men DNF and women rack up 343 points at PAC12s

That is exactly what I am saying!

Plenty of running club kids run 80 mpw for fun and are a signifigantly faster than the Arizona guys. No scholarships or AD support for running club.

Again in a school of 36,000 Lagat should be to find and coach 5 guys to sub 27 mins for FREE. No support needed except the price of the bus to

Pac12s

Flagpole wrote:

So, Bernard Lagat is a NEW coach at Arizona, and some of you are saying he is obviously a bad coach based on the performance of this team that he didn't even recruit? Holy Schnikes Batman, let the man have a few years to get his own recruits in there, to set the culture, etc. It is possible he is a horrible coach, but we have no evidence of that yet.

The goal of any coach is to get improvement from their athletes. A good coach can get a 9:00 h.s. senior to a sub 24:00 guy in Xc probably in a year or two. Just because Lagat is saddled with a bunch of 9:30 h.s. guys doesn't mean that he shouldn't be coaching them to improve. Only getting 26:xx-27:xx is like he didn't give a shif at all.

A great recruiter will beat a former great runner at the coaching profession 10/10 times. A great recruiter will beat a great developer 7/10 times, and a great developer will beat a former great runner 9/10. Basically recruiting is the name of the game, if you can also develop talent and walk-ons then you’re going to do great things. You need to have scholarship money and an ability to develop that will fix any program

It's relevant to points raised in this thread, even if they aren't yours. Arizona xc and t&f has a rather similar reputation to UTEP over the past couple of decades, of course. The days of Tara Chaplin, Amy Skieresz, and Marc Davis are long, long gone.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I don't think your point makes much sense. UTEP is an up-and-down program that recruits a lot of Africans. They turn around some NCAA champions and All-Americans like Korir, Saruni and Amusan et al. It's not a very desirable place to recruit as Conference USA school in El Paso. They seem to be solid considering the situation. Meanwhile Arizona is in the Pac-12 with a reputation as one of the most fun schools in the US. They have one of the worst XC teams we've ever seen. So why are we comparing Lagat and Ereng? It's too early to write off Lagat, but it's also completely random to act like Ereng isn't doing a fine job.

[quote]Nissan Hardbody wrote:

It's relevant to points raised in this thread, even if they aren't yours. Arizona xc and t&f has a rather similar reputation to UTEP over the past couple of decades, of course. The days of Tara Chaplin, Amy Skieresz, and Marc Davis are long, long gone.

Still not seeing this at all. It'd be like someone saying you know Urban Meyer is a joke as an NFL coach and someone countering with well Mike Tomlin is overrated! OK I mean maybe, but one guy's done some things and had some huge moments.

lol...

Well, exactly, I completely disagree with what you are saying!! (Because, well, you are wrong and your analogy is silly.)

(Btw, that was a typo in my previous post... *correction is "isn't"... but you knew that...)

lil durk wrote:

A great recruiter will beat a former great runner at the coaching profession 10/10 times. A great recruiter will beat a great developer 7/10 times, and a great developer will beat a former great runner 9/10. Basically recruiting is the name of the game, if you can also develop talent and walk-ons then you’re going to do great things. You need to have scholarship money and an ability to develop that will fix any program

The people here that are disparaging Lagats coaching aren't disparaging his recruiting. These are separate things. He may well indeed end up recruiting some really quality talent over the next few years, but he's getting less out of the talent than almost anyone could. That's terrible coaching. There is no reason that his guys finished as poorly in this race as they did unless these guys were 19:00 5k guys in h.s. (fast course). As others have noted, these Arizona guys wouldn't even be mid-pack in D-2. Stop making this about recruiting. Right now, I'd take the coach at University of Miami Florida (479 pts. ACC) over Lagat.

15_50 wrote:

shootpost wrote:

That is exactly what I am saying!

Plenty of running club kids run 80 mpw for fun and are a signifigantly faster than the Arizona guys. No scholarships or AD support for running club.

Again in a school of 36,000 Lagat should be to find and coach 5 guys to sub 27 mins for FREE. No support needed except the price of the bus to

Pac12s

lol...

Well, exactly, I completely disagree with what you are saying!! (Because, well, you are wrong and your analogy is silly.)

(Btw, that was a typo in my previous post... *correction is "isn't"... but you knew that...)

Okay, so you are defending the D1 coach who can't get 5 guys to run 5:30 pace for 5 miles?

Umm , ever heard of a bicycle? Why is a motorcar or a moped essential on flatlands to go 1.5 miles? Soft Americanism rising to the surface? Drachman track is part of a facility that also holds 3 soccer fields. Perfect for easy running loops around the perimeter, and barefoot running.

Arizona has had 2 Kenyans on roster for 3 years minimum. Same # as during the Lawi Lalang/Stephen Sambu era. 5 pages and no mention of Arizona's Kenyans?????????? What gives, brotein?

15_50 wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Could you please provide some information with your post? It shouldn't be up to the reader to dig through HS PRs to figure out what level of talent was recruited. I did look up info for one runner and he ran 9:08 at 5500' which is worth sub-9 at sea level.

Sorry to chime in again Aztec but he/she doesn't need to provide you any information about recruits... Colorado does not have better recruits than every single school in the P12... that was a rhetorical question (and also subjective) to get you to realize it is not 100% about recruiting... some coaches are just good at coaching... some are better than others... some are just not good coaches... just like any profession. (and just to clarify, I do think recruiting is an important element... it's just not 100% responsible for results)

If that poster knows that Colorado has had modest success in recruiting he should be able to name a couple of guys that seem to be exceeding expectations. Unless I do the digging myself, I don't know if he provided an example of good coaching with Colorado.

In regard to coaching, you'll have hard time finding any HS 9:30 2-miler or slower, that later became successful in D-1. At that level, 9:30 guys are a dime a dozen.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Nissan Hardbody wrote:

It'd be like someone saying you know Urban Meyer is a joke as an NFL coach and someone countering with well Mike Tomlin is overrated! OK I mean maybe, but one guy's done some things and had some huge moments.

Nah, not close at all. Rather, it's like saying that even though Petrino and Saban were also great as a college coaches, they showed there is a clear ceiling to someone who is trying to transition from college excellence to the NFL and therefore don't go anointing Meyer as one certain to do better in the NFL than the other two did. As others have said on this thread, anyone with decent high school coaching chops could have found 5 guys at a school that size and coached them to finish better than that, even in just the first season coaching at the college level. Kip seems overmatched, though Ereng doesn't have a great record coaching xc so maybe it's simply a tertiary priority at both UA and UTEP.

I'll just leave it at this. You are talking (posting?) with one right now. Not hard for me to find at all.

I had a very good coach... who knew what he was doing... and not just with me.

shootpost wrote:

15_50 wrote:

lol...

Well, exactly, I completely disagree with what you are saying!! (Because, well, you are wrong and your analogy is silly.)

(Btw, that was a typo in my previous post... *correction is "isn't"... but you knew that...)

Okay, so you are defending the D1 coach who can't get 5 guys to run 5:30 pace for 5 miles?

Yes. That is exactly what I am doing.

I specialize in dumb comments. wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

So, Bernard Lagat is a NEW coach at Arizona, and some of you are saying he is obviously a bad coach based on the performance of this team that he didn't even recruit? Holy Schnikes Batman, let the man have a few years to get his own recruits in there, to set the culture, etc. It is possible he is a horrible coach, but we have no evidence of that yet.

The goal of any coach is to get improvement from their athletes. A good coach can get a 9:00 h.s. senior to a sub 24:00 guy in Xc probably in a year or two. Just because Lagat is saddled with a bunch of 9:30 h.s. guys doesn't mean that he shouldn't be coaching them to improve. Only getting 26:xx-27:xx is like he didn't give a shif at all.

Recruiting is more than just looking at times. It's looking at their improvement, looking at their training, talking to them and finding out how motivated they are to get better, etc. He can't be judged just yet, because he didn't bring these guys in. It is perhaps the runners who didn't give a sh!t.

15_50 wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

If that poster knows that Colorado has had modest success in recruiting he should be able to name a couple of guys that seem to be exceeding expectations. Unless I do the digging myself, I don't know if he provided an example of good coaching with Colorado.

In regard to coaching, you'll have hard time finding any HS 9:30 2-miler or slower, that later became successful in D-1. At that level, 9:30 guys are a dime a dozen.

I'll just leave it at this. You are talking (posting?) with one right now. Not hard for me to find at all.

I had a very good coach... who knew what he was doing... and not just with me.

I was a 9:30 guy myself. In college, I could run a little under 25:00 which made me a mid-packer. I seriously doub't there was some magical coach somewhere that could have gotten down me to 24:00.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

15_50 wrote:

I'll just leave it at this. You are talking (posting?) with one right now. Not hard for me to find at all.

I had a very good coach... who knew what he was doing... and not just with me.

I was a 9:30 guy myself. In college, I could run a little under 25:00 which made me a mid-packer. I seriously doub't there was some magical coach somewhere that could have gotten down me to 24:00.

I've read this board enough to understand that you doubt it... but in my case it is quite true and I was slower than 9:30 in HS. (It's fine if you don't believe me... I had a very good coach... magical? Maybe, if that's what you want to call him)

SDSU Aztec wrote:

fire on the mountain wrote:

Are you saying that Colorado had better recruits than every single other school in the p12?

Could you please provide some information with your post? It shouldn't be up to the reader to dig through HS PRs to figure out what level of talent was recruited. I did look up info for one runner and he ran 9:08 at 5500' which is worth sub-9 at sea level.

Ok, I’ll make this more clear. You are making excuses for a s#itty coach. Results are what they are. Crystal clear.

Wetmore clearly does not have the highest ranked recruits. Yet there he is at the top. No other school has more team titles on the p12. Success in any collective activity begins and ends with leadership.

Losers will blame anything and everything but themselves.

fire on the mountain wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Could you please provide some information with your post? It shouldn't be up to the reader to dig through HS PRs to figure out what level of talent was recruited. I did look up info for one runner and he ran 9:08 at 5500' which is worth sub-9 at sea level.

Ok, I’ll make this more clear. You are making excuses for a s#itty coach. Results are what they are. Crystal clear.

Wetmore clearly does not have the highest ranked recruits. Yet there he is at the top. No other school has more team titles on the p12. Success in any collective activity begins and ends with leadership.

Losers will blame anything and everything but themselves.

I checked some of the Arizona guys and there is an 800 specialist and 2 guys that ran 9:44 and 10:03. No coach is going to turn these guys into D-1 runners and certainly not within 10 weeks.

Years back, a friend and I watched a D-2 XC regional meet in Rocklin, CA. At the time it seemed Chapman College must have wanted to offer participation in XC to its students and for that meet it sent two guys that ran 50:00 for 10K. We were both surprised Chapman paid travel expenses for those guys but it never occurred to us that their coach must have sucked.

Guys, just give me some time and I'll be Arizona's number one guy